[polluted]

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...05277695921912
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...05277695921912

dont be afraid of it.embrace it.i know that alot of people feel that there missing something in there life,or feel in tune with earth more than some fictional character.

we are not born a sinners,we are born human.grandchildren of earth.fight for our real creater.not some false gods that show no sign of trying to help out the human race.


http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/

Religious people will not listen to you. That's why they are religious. They've already been convinced of a certain reason for life being the way it is. When people de-convert, it's because they think about it on their own, and usually were never true believers in the first place. I've found it's always the skeptics in the church who end up becoming atheists one day, not the hardcore believers, because hardcore believers are too controlled by fear to change anything. So if you're trying to reach them, you're wasting your time.

Non-religious people already agree with what you are saying. So there's no need to tell them either.

Bottom line, there's no point to this. Just think about your own life, and how you came to this point. Were you a believer at one point and someone came along to teach you how religion is just a bunch of garbage? Probably not. You either have always been atheist, or thought through the bogus construct of religion on your own.

I know you're anxious to get the message out there, so that other people can be "saved" (ironically ) from the grasp of mental imprisonment that religious beliefs indeed apply to it's followers, but I've come to realize that the change always comes from within each person. Some people wake up and some don't. There will always be people that believe in God, regardless of how silly it sounds, or how many reasonable points are brought up against it. I really think it just comes down to personality differences.

I also believe that deep down, truly, everybody knows there is no God, but the fear of death is so frightening to some personality types, that they have to attach themselves to an anchor of some sort, or they feel lost and frantic, and what better anchor than a promise from a seemingly infinite being, that they'll live forever after they pass from their body? It somewhat dulls the sting, of the permanent and constant awareness of our own mortality. Not to mention, some people just like to use God as an excuse for everything they don't understand (God of the gaps), and as I'm sure you know, unchecked egos are quite a disturbingly normal part of human nature as well. I don't know why, and I don't personally have a passion for egos myself, but it is the way it is.

Peace to you brother. I know your heart is in the right place. Just wanted to offer some words to you, that I hope might ease your aggression just a bit. I used to be very angry with the lies of religion myself, but I realized my energy was much better spent just "being the change I want to see in the world", as a wise man once said...

That is all.... (crawls back into cave)

[Nailhead]

Originally Posted by Cannabliss

When people de-convert, it's because they think about it on their own, and usually were never true believers in the first place.

I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote, but this part especially seems to represent how I fell away from Christianity. One of my friends assumed the reason I stopped going to church was a direct result from watching Zeitgeist, and to be honest I was a bit offended he thought I was so stupid that my core belief structure could be altered by a documentary. The truth is I didn't really become skeptical until I started reading the bible. Some parts just don't add up, and much of it just sounds like stories passed down through hundreds, if not thousands, of tribesmen over a long period of time.

It's a good thing for everyone to question their own beliefs. Nobody should ever be so certain their belief is true, because nobody really knows what happens after we die, but more importantly, nobody should be worrying about a life after this one.

[superface13]

Originally Posted by Nailhead

It's a good thing for everyone to question their own beliefs. Nobody should ever be so certain their belief is true, because nobody really knows what happens after we die, but more importantly, nobody should be worrying about a life after this one.

Nothing is more securely lodged than the ignorance of the experts.

[polluted]

i dont hate on something that doesnt exist.I choose to express my beliefs and disbeliefs.I do hate how we have thwese crazy food wasting home town buffets and there are starving children in other parts of the world + this region.I hate how this pos government treats marijuana like a terrorist when in reality it should be industrialized..yea

[SmilerG]

We're all just part of God's own personal Wii, X-Box or PlayStation video game!

The game is set up with angelic or demonic entities -- and us.

We're bait!

That's about it.

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

Why all the god haters? Sad to see. Let the hate flow my brothers, see you on the "otherside".

No one hates "god". People either believe in him and love him, or they just don't believe in him.

You can't hate what doesn't exist.

We hate, or should I say, we are upset with... the LIES spread by various religions, which they are only doing in an attempt to expand their empire, because in the end, it's all about power, and world domination.

What is the "otherside"? You don't even know if something like that even exists, yet you talk about it with such certainty. If you could be honest with yourself, you'd admit that you only believe in the concept of an afterlife because it temporarily silences your natural fear of your inevitable death. Period.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but we definately shouldn't be lying to ourselves to avoid dealing with our fears. Best thing to do is face them, and if you can't overcome them, accept them. It's much better than sticking your head in the sand and voluntarily blocking yourself from future enlightenment. Why would you do that? You only get one life.

Originally Posted by Cannabliss

No one hates "god". People either believe in him and love him, or they just don't believe in him.

You can't hate what doesn't exist.

We hate, or should I say, we are upset with... the LIES spread by various religions, which they are only doing in an attempt to expand their empire, because in the end, it's all about power, and world domination.

What is the "otherside"? You don't even know if something like that even exists, yet you talk about it with such certainty. If you could be honest with yourself, you'd admit that you only believe in the concept of an afterlife because it temporarily silences your natural fear of your inevitable death. Period.

There's nothing wrong with being afraid, but we definately shouldn't be lying to ourselves to avoid dealing with our fears. Best thing to do is face them, and if you can't overcome them, accept them. It's much better than sticking your head in the sand and voluntarily blocking yourself from future enlightenment. Why would you do that? You only get one life.

Put the religious context aside so you are not blinded by a hate of organized religion.
Admit that:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I believe M theory explains it all.
I believe it gives us a glimpse of what is and with our limited brains we cannot comprehend what we do not understand. It really boils down to us evolving into higher intellects so we can understand the infinte Beyond. At this point either you posess it or you don't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory
http://skepdic.com/essays/schwartz.html

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

Put the religious context aside so you are not blinded by a hate of organized religion.

This thread was made in the vein of organized religion.

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

Admit that:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

People like to say this because it sounds witty and catchy, but actually, absence of evidence HAS TO represent evidence of absence. This is the default position.

Otherwise, there would be no limit to how many things we could create in our imaginations, and using your logic, we would have to accept that every single one of those concoctions, no matter how wacky, could possibly exist.

Using your theory of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", we have to accept that minotaurs, unicorns, and leprechauns might exist... simply because someone made them up.

Do you believe in minotaurs, unicorns, and leprechauns? No? Didn't think so.

I always wondered why religious people want proof of everything else that sounds fishy before they'll believe it, but when it comes to "god", they believe. No questions asked. Could it be the fear and threats of torture attached to this "god", who would punish you simply for not worshipping him? I think so. You put unicorns in the back of your mind, as a silly idea, because no one is threatening you with hellfire if you don't accept them.

Logic breathes freely when there is no influence of oppression getting in the way, as there is with organized religions, and their "gods". How about you admit that? :)

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

I believe it gives us a glimpse of what is and with our limited brains we cannot comprehend what we do not understand. It really boils down to us evolving into higher intellects so we can understand the infinte Beyond. At this point either you posess it or you don't.

If we have limited brains that cannot comprehend what they do not understand, then you could never comprehend whether or not "god" is real in the first place.

You couldn't comprehend this so-called "glimpse" into the infinite, as being just that, if it was beyond your comprehension. Basically, you just admitted to believing in "god" for the sake of convenience.

[stanley]

Too many people fail to understand the difference between "religion" and "faith".

Too many people fail to understand the difference between "the church" and "faith".

I am always entertained by the atheists who loudly proclaim the "death" of God. (or the non-existence). God is an idea or concept those of us with faith use to understand things that seem to be beyond comprehension. Ideas and concepts cant die, and you cannot discuss God (or God's existence) without acknowledging the existence of the concept.

The failings and flaws you folks have "exposed" of religion have little to do with anything other than the failings and flaws of the PEOPLE who claim to adhere to the "religions" you condemn, not the actual religions themselves.

Regardless of what you may loudly proclaim, you have a set of internal "rules".... concepts of right and wrong, systems of socialization, what many call religion..... you choose to call it something else.

Pretty much everybody believes in something...

.....unless of course you are a true sociopath.

Call it whatever name you chose. Even a belief in "nothing" is a belief.

We will not resolve this discussion, and I have no animosity towards proponents of any position.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

Cannabliss don't get too carried away and sure of yourself. Cockiness will get you nowhere. All's I can do is debate. You have no proof an afterlife does not exist.

I'm not being cocky at all. I'm always open to new information, which is why I feel the way I do. It's religion that attempts to apply that chokehold on our conciousness, as they actually encourage us to not think for ourselves, and just accept their doctrine.

I'd believe in "god" the moment that evidence was revealed to me.

Also, I do not need to prove that an afterlife exists, but you need to prove that one DOES exist, since you claim that it does. All I said was that there is no proof, so there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE. I didn't say it was set in stone.

The "afterlife" can not be DIS-proven, because as of right now it is UN-proven. I hope you understand this. It's impossible to disprove something that as of yet still remains unproven, or, just an idea. And if it was ever proven to be real, then it couldn't be disproven. Thus, disproving anything is impossible. I think that's why religious people always bring up that "you can't disprove it" line. Because they know you can't disprove something that HAS BEEN PROVEN, or something that still remains UNPROVEN. They know it's impossible, so it's their way of backing non-believers in a corner, but ha ha... I see through that little tactic.

To disprove something, would be the same as un-creating something. It's not physically possible.

Originally Posted by stanley

Too many people fail to understand the difference between "religion" and "faith".

Too many people fail to understand the difference between "the church" and "faith".

I am always entertained by the atheists who loudly proclaim the "death" of God. (or the non-existence). God is an idea or concept those of us with faith use to understand things that seem to be beyond comprehension. Ideas and concepts cant die, and you cannot discuss God (or God's existence) without acknowledging the existence of the concept.

So you're admitting that "god" is just an idea? Hmmm...

I've never claimed the "death of god", as something that has never existed cannot die.

Originally Posted by stanley

Even a belief in "nothing" is a belief.

No it is not. If you don't hold a belief about something, then it's space that is left vacant for the time being, that may or may not be occupied in the future by new information, at which time a belief may develop. As of right now, my LACK OF BELIEF in "god" does not represent an actual belief. It's just not there.

There is no hardened approach, or stubborn unwillingness to let evidence pass through. If evidence presented itself, it would enter without any resistance at all. And that's because I LACK BELIEF in "god"... rather than holding a belief that he doesn't exist.

I'm just saying it's not logical to believe in anything for which there isn't, and never has been, any proof.

[stanley]

Originally Posted by Cannabliss

I'm just saying it's not logical to believe in anything for which there isn't, and never has been, any proof.

So, just to be clear then,

Since there is and never has been any empirical proof of love, it does not exist.
Or hate, lust, fear, joy...

I was trained as a mechanical engineer, I lived my life in the technical world of physical proofs and truths.

Logic is the only way rational people can get by... and yet....

even logically driven , scientifically educated, folks like me, rooted in the physical world of measurable, quantifiable phenomena admit the existence of things that cannot be measured, or quantified...

how big is an idea?

We are all trying to define and understand this life we live. We all perceive things thru our own personal set of "filters"..... our own ideology

You sound amazed that I would consider God as a concept or idea.

For those with faith, God is much more than some iconic smiling gentleman dressed in robes seated on a throne framed in beams of golden sunlight resting on fluffy white clouds.

For those with faith, God is in the compassion shown by the dispensary owners who are doing this for the right reasons.

For those with faith, God is in the support, the hope, whatever name you use for it, that is given by visiting a sick friend.

we are in essence arguing semantics.

My idea of God is so obviously so completely different than yours, we are not even speaking the same language....

betcha I can come up with something we both believe in.....

I believe its time for another bowl.... how about you?

[stanley]

Originally Posted by Cannabliss

So you're admitting that "god" is just an idea? Hmmm...

I have to admit, this made me laugh out loud.

Actually, Cannabliss, I'll let you in on the secret.... God is a 57 year old Lithuanian woman who lives in Cleveland..... works at Walmart.

Do you really have that simplistic a concept of what "God" is to someone with faith?

peace my friend...

[ScrewyLewy]

Great thread people, really enjoying the debate. Happy Turkey Day.
I believe I'll toast you all.
Peace

[polluted]

Faith = belief that is not based on proof..

"if" there is/was a god,he needs to be fired and banned from Earth for slacking on the job...Or is he/she still sketched out about the dinosaurs and afraid to mess something up again?

we as humans need to come to grips with ourselves and nature to get threw these hard times.Earth is the one and only living entity caring for us humans.She gives us medicine/s ,food,and resources for shelter.People of earth ,stand up and fight for whats ours!

[Nailhead]

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

Why all the god haters? Sad to see. Let the hate flow my brothers, see you on the "otherside".

A true atheist can't hate what they don't believe exists

[stanley]

Originally Posted by polluted

we as humans need to come to grips with ourselves and nature to get threw these hard times.Earth is the one and only living entity caring for us humans.She gives us medicine/s ,food,and resources for shelter.People of earth ,stand up and fight for whats ours!

edit: as Superface13 notes below I have confused posts by Cannabliss and Polluted... Please accept my apologies, and understand I was NOT trying to put the attributed words to either poster that they did not post...instead, I was posting too late without enough sleep... and was continuing the "conversation" I thought I was having with Cannabliss...

Chalk it up to old age, senility, sleep deprivation, good coldwater hash....

again, sorry!

( I wont delete the text, I am not hiding anything, it just isnt at all valid since I was answering Cannabliss in my mind, but using Polluted's post... wrong all around.) Text is just greyed out....)


wait a second.... hold on there....

I would have sworn earlier you pretty much implied that you had no "faith".

Now, you come out saying that "Earth" is the only "living entity" 'caring" for us...."She" gives us.....

That is a pretty animistic attitude for someone who has no "faith".

You give the aggregate physical processes, the chemistry, the biology, the physics that are "earth" a "higher" form, calling that aggregation an "entity" and giving that aggregation humanistic characteristics ("caring")

How do you rationally justify that position as any different to mine?

You put all your support behind logical processes:

" I'm just saying it's not logical to believe in anything for which there isn't, and never has been, any proof. "

And then condemn my "faith" as devoid of value because it doesnt meet your test of empirical proof... but then you further support your position with:

"Earth is the one and only living entity caring for us humans.She gives us medicine/s ,food,and resources for shelter"

Sorry, in most classes on comparative religions, I believe that position is known as one form of neo-paganism... in which the "believer" instills spiritualistic faith or hope in the physical earth.

So, where is your "proof" that the Earth "cares"?

What is it going to be? Is there only the physical world, or are you acknowledging that a spiritual world DOES exist, even though you cannot "prove" it is there?

Or are you going to insist on having it both ways.... because right now, that is what it looks to me like you are trying to say.... My idea has no merit, but your equally spiritualistic idea does?

and your proof of that position is where?

[iconoclast]

By our very finite nature we are infinitely incapable of comprehending the infinite.

[sandyacres]

Originally Posted by stanley

God is a 57 year old Lithuanian woman who lives in Cleveland..... works at Walmart.

I thought that was Her.

:

[superface13]

Originally Posted by stanley

wait a second.... hold on there....

I would have sworn earlier you pretty much implied that you had no "faith".

Now, you come out saying that "Earth" is the only "living entity" 'caring" for us...."She" gives us.....

That is a pretty animistic attitude for someone who has no "faith".

You give the aggregate physical processes, the chemistry, the biology, the physics that are "earth" a "higher" form, calling that aggregation an "entity" and giving that aggregation humanistic characteristics ("caring")

How do you rationally justify that position as any different to mine?

You put all your support behind logical processes:

"I'm just saying it's not logical to believe in anything for which there isn't, and never has been, any proof. "

And then condemn my "faith" as devoid of value because it doesnt meet your test of empirical proof... but then you further support your position with:

"Earth is the one and only living entity caring for us humans.She gives us medicine/s ,food,and resources for shelter"

Sorry, in most classes on comparative religions, I believe that position is known as one form of neo-paganism... in which the "believer" instills spiritualistic faith or hope in the physical earth.

So, where is your "proof" that the Earth "cares"?

What is it going to be? Is there only the physical world, or are you acknowledging that a spiritual world DOES exist, even though you cannot "prove" it is there?

Or are you going to insist on having it both ways.... because right now, that is what it looks to me like you are trying to say.... My idea has no merit, but your equally spiritualistic idea does?

and your proof of that position is where?

I think you have Polluted and Cannabliss confused.....Polluted believes in Mother Earth, Cannabliss is an athiest. I have faith in some higher order of the universe. I see god in everything. I don't quite think that god is some dude that wants us all to get along...It's deeper than that. God is both the creative and destructive force in the universe/multiverse. I don't need empirical proof to believe in life on other planets. I don't need empirical proof that love conquers hate eventually. I don't need empirical proof that something that we don't understand created it all for some or even no reason. I really try not to worry about it. All I can do is focus on the here and now and try to make this life better for my family, friends, and myself. The best way to do that is to make it better for everyone.

[stanley]

Originally Posted by superface13

I think you have Polluted and Cannabliss confused.....

Well, in this case, you are absolutely correct.

The product of too little actual sleep and too much coldwater hash.

I hope both Cannabliss and Polluted will accept my sincere apology for my mental lapse...

meanwhile.... I am going to try to get some rest and work on my communication skills...

again, sorry for the confusion....

Originally Posted by stanley

So, just to be clear then,

Since there is and never has been any empirical proof of love, it does not exist.
Or hate, lust, fear, joy...

You can call them what you wish, but the things we know as hate, lust, fear, and joy, can be experienced, and have been. Numerous times. They exist because we can feel our chemical makeup being altered by these emotions as they occur.

These things definately can be felt to some understandable degree, which even in it's infancy, is a lot more verifiable than what we've ever understood about this "god" concept.

Originally Posted by stanley

even logically driven , scientifically educated, folks like me, rooted in the physical world of measurable, quantifiable phenomena admit the existence of things that cannot be measured, or quantified...

Admit the existence of things that can't be measured? Is that possible? If something can't be measured, then you don't know it's really real... and you only hold on to it as an IDEA. Key word: Idea.

You say that you "admit the existence of"... as if these things have been proven to exist, but if they were to exist, they would have been measured in some manner, in order to prove their existence.

However, by saying they can't be measured, as you did, you're destroying your own claim that they are real.

Originally Posted by stanley

We are all trying to define and understand this life we live. We all perceive things thru our own personal set of "filters"..... our own ideology

True. So if you understand that, then why claim things to be real when they have yet to be proven as such?

Originally Posted by stanley

For those with faith, God is much more than some iconic smiling gentleman dressed in robes seated on a throne framed in beams of golden sunlight resting on fluffy white clouds.

Then you're not a typical christian, and therefore, not who I was referring to in my posts. So, how did we even get into this discussion then?

Originally Posted by stanley

My idea of God is so obviously so completely different than yours, we are not even speaking the same language....

That's another problem. People don't seem to realize that they all worship their own personal "god". Everyone has a different IDEA of who and what "god" is... There are just as many "gods" as there are believers, since everyone has their own idea of "god"! Well, which one of us is right? I'd bank on this - NONE of us. It's an idea. Nothing more. Nothing has been proven.

People need to stop acting like this "god" character is real, and even worse, believing that the "god" they imagined in their mind is the real "god", while everybody else's "god" is the fake "god". It's really quite ridiculous.

Originally Posted by stanley

Do you really have that simplistic a concept of what "God" is to someone with faith?

What is that supposed to mean...

What "god" is to someone with faith, is whatever their mind came up with.

Everyone dresses up "god" with the characteristics that they would most like to see "god" as having. It's always a design from convenience.

That's not that deep at all. Not any deeper than the desires of each individual, and how wild their imagination can get... which probably isn't that wild, in the end.

Originally Posted by DJLatenight

Perhaps........Just as a seagull shits and pisses thru one orifice, thru the miracle of evolution.
Perhaps some of us are just further ahead on the evolutionary scale and posess the ability to comprehend the infinite thru perhaps a more advanced hypothallomus, or a tweak in our neurological system.
Maybe the ability to comprehend the infinite lies in ones ability to perceive reality on a finer scale.

Or perhaps you just made all that up? Finer scale? Are you serious? What does that even mean?

This is exactly what I'm talking about...this guy just has some idea that he understands "god", and it's because of the blessing he thinks he has received from him... arrogantly insinuating that he just might be further up on the "evolutionary scale", and "possesses the ability to comprehend the infinite"?!?! Really? I can't believe you just said that...

Well then, if you are in touch with the "infinte", why don't you explain it to everybody, and shut us all up for good. You have proof of your "god" existing outside of your mind? Please, by all means, reveal it. You could single-handedly destroy atheism, and all conflicting religions in one shot.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel better about yourself, I guess...

These are the lies we tell to ourselves, that we could really do without, as I was talking about earlier.

Of course there is no evidence of "god", otherwise it would have been revealed already. Like someone who finds proof is just going to keep it to themselves... c'mon now... It would have spread all over the world by now, and every belief system that clashes with the proof would be effectively eliminated, permanently.

When people claim this "higher understanding", it really just makes me slap my forehead like this: ...Especially when it's so obvious that it's based on what you WISH to be true. Dude, I can't believe you don't realize what a joke that is.