[stanley]

for discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/us...estweb.html?hp

Thousands Rally in Capital to Protest Big Government

By JEFF ZELENY
Published: September 12, 2009

WASHINGTON — A sea of protesters filled the west lawn of the Capitol and spilled onto the National Mall on Saturday in the largest rally against President Obama since he took office, a culmination of a summer-long season of protests that began with opposition to a health care overhaul and grew into a broader dissatisfaction with government.

On a cloudy and cool day, the demonstrators came from all corners of the country, waving American flags and handwritten signs explaining the root of their frustrations. Their anger stretched well beyond the health care legislation moving through Congress, with shouts of support for gun rights, lower taxes and a smaller government.

But as they sang verse after verse of patriotic hymns like “God Bless America,” sharp words of profane and political criticism were aimed at Mr. Obama and Congress.

Dick Armey, a former House Republican leader whose group Freedomworks helped organize the protest, stood before the crowd and led the rallying cries in nearly the same spot where Mr. Obama took his oath of office eight months ago.

“He pledged a commitment of fidelity to the United States Constitution,” Mr. Armey said, suggesting that Mr. Obama was in violation of what the founding fathers intended the size and scope of the government to be.

“Liar! Liar! Liar! Liar!” the crowd shouted back, echoing the accusation that Representative Joe Wilson, Republican of South Carolina, hurled at the president three days earlier during his address to Congress.

The demonstrators numbered well into the tens of thousands, though the police declined to estimate the size of the crowd. Many came on their own and were not part of an organization or group. But the magnitude of the rally took the authorities by surprise, with throngs of people streaming from the White House to Capitol Hill for more than three hours.

The atmosphere was rowdy at times, with signs and images casting Mr. Obama in a demeaning light. One sign called him the “parasite in chief.” Others likened him to Hitler. Several people held up preprinted signs saying, “Bury Obama Care with Kennedy,” a reference to the Massachusetts senator whose body passed by the Capitol two weeks earlier to be memorialized.

Other signs did not focus on Mr. Obama, but rather on the government at large, promoting gun rights, tallying the national deficit and deploring illegal immigrants living in the United States.

Still, many demonstrators expressed their views without a hint of rage. They said the size of the crowd illustrated that their views were shared by a broader audience.

“I want Congress to be afraid,” said Keldon Clapp, 45, an unemployed marketing representative who recently moved to Tennessee from Connecticut after losing his job. “Like everyone else here, I want them to know that we’re watching what they’re doing. And they do work for us.”

As Mr. Obama traveled to Minnesota on Saturday to rally support for his health care plan, he flew over the assembling crowd in Marine One. The helicopter could be seen flying overhead as the demonstrators marched down Pennsylvania Avenue.

“This is not some kind of radical right-wing group,” Senator Jim DeMint, Republican of South Carolina, said in an interview as dozens of people streamed by him. “I just hope the Congress, the Senate and the president recognize that people are afraid of what’s going on.”

Mr. DeMint and a handful of Republican legislators were the only party leaders on hand for the demonstration. Republican officials said privately that they were pleased by the turnout but wary of the anger directed at all politicians. And most of those who turned out were not likely to have been Obama voters anyway.

Protesters came by bus, car and airplane, arriving here from Texas and Tennessee, New Mexico and New Hampshire, Ohio and Oregon. The messages on their signs told of an intense distrust of the government, which several people said began long before Mr. Obama took office.

For the most part, Democrats stayed silent on Saturday, with the exception of a small group of counterdemonstrators who gathered behind a roadblock to protest what they called a “right-wing rally.” Many were members of the clergy, who said they were concerned about misinformation propagated by opponents of health care legislation.

“We’d like to have an honest debate,” said Chris Korzen, director of the nonprofit Catholics United. “I don’t see a lot of substance here.”

While there was no shortage of vitriol among protesters, there was also an air of festivity. A band of protesters in colonial gear wound through the crowd, led by a bell ringer in a tricorn hat calling for revolution. A folk singer belting out a protest ballad on a guitar brought cheers.

In conversations with demonstrators, people identified themselves as Republicans, libertarians, independents and former Democrats. Several speakers denounced the Obama administration’s health care plan as “socialism.” A few Confederate flags waved in the air, but there were hundreds of American flags and chants of, “U.S.A.! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!” A young girl held a sign saying, “Don’t redistribute the wealth of my Barbies.”

Ruth Lobbs, 57, a schoolteacher from Jacksonville, Fla., said she flew to Washington on Saturday to protest how she believes the government has violated the Constitution. She said she did not vote for the president, adding that her anger has been building for years.

“It’s more than Obama — this isn’t a Republican or a Democratic issue,” Ms. Lobbs said as she held a yellow flag that declared, “Don’t Tread on Me.”

“I don’t know if anything will come of this or not,” she said, “but this is a peaceful way of showing our frustration.”

Theo Emery and Ashley Southall contributed reporting.

[g0tpersian]

lol of course the ny times is only going to report the most radical of signs. I bet there was only like 1 or 2 at max of each of those kinds of signs. lol. Partisan press... That was just a side note.

Good article. Citizens need to speak their opinions more often. =]

[VooDoo Chile]

What are we supposed to discuss? People protest outside the White House literally every single day for various reasons.

BTW, someone needs to tell all these folks who keep claiming that TEH SOCIALISMS are unconstitutional that captialism isn't in the Constitution. Not once. In fact, the Constitution is silent on some of the most vital aspects of our socio-economic political system.

[BrattonBasher]

The furor over the number of protesters is cracking me up. Some right wing media is putting the number at 2 million, others mis-quoted ABC news and claimed 1.5 million. This was a small gathering for Washington DC standards. The City of DC has 8 million people in it's general area, so this was hardly blockbuster. I give credit to the people who went to air their views, no matter the number.

Another amusing aspect to this is the organizer, Dick Armey the former Congressman and his Freedom Works organization, are "astroturf" all the way!!! They even claimed credit for the Town Hall protests against healthcare, and at the same time the right is claiming it's grass roots!!! Which one is it???

[contract.dude]

that is a lot of people. do you remeber when the Hispanic population had their protests? that was alot of people aso. the million man march.. roe vs ... g8

they should charge protesters 2.00 bucks to be able to protest, to pay for the people it takes to guard, monitor, protect and clean up after the protesting..

[H-DFatBoy]

Truly an excellent article. I agree that we as individuals need too continue to educate ourselves and others.

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by g0tpersian

lol of course the ny times is only going to report the most radical of signs. I bet there was only like 1 or 2 at max of each of those kinds of signs. lol. Partisan press... That was just a side note.

Good article. Citizens need to speak their opinions more often. =]

LOL Here is just one of the many photo collages of protesters signs:

http://www.oliverwillis.com/2009/09/...s-in-the-wild/


This whole blame the press for everything is quite old. It's the convienent excuse the right gives to any press it gets. This was a small gathering of white people who despise Obama, nothing more. They might yell loud, but they are not a majority like Levin and Limbaugh claim. Kudos to them for being politically active, but lets not get carried away here.

[BrattonBasher]

Here are more pictures of protesters, several pages worth with comments:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42406957@N04/


If anyone can identify a single minority in one of these photos, I will award the Where"s Waldo trophy to them!

[contract.dude]

i don't even know who is an minority any more... what is the info BB on that?

are you white? purple, green?

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by contract.dude

i don't even know who is an minority any more... what is the info BB on that?

are you white? purple, green?

I'm white. It certainly appeared to be whites only at this event. That is the rub. These days you need to appeal to more than one demographic if you wish to make waves nationally. The Republican Party has become too regional in their appeal IMHO.

[contract.dude]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

I'm white. It certainly appeared to be whites only at this event. That is the rub. These days you need to appeal to more than one demographic if you wish to make waves nationally. The Republican Party has become too regional in their appeal IMHO.

it would be nice to see some "members" of both parties go away. its that small percentage on both sides that cry. the next elections are going to be crazy..

i wonder by county (in California), what the "majority" demographic was and who carried that county in the past election. (think Hispanic)

i think if people get mad, they are going to stand up more in the future. IMO

we don't mind taking other peoples freedoms from other countries, its when the government starts taking away our freedoms, that's when we have the problems.. (cough)

but i dont know anything, im a white guy

[SmilerG]

I'm in agreement with the notion of reducing the size of "Big Government" - but only to the extent that the reduction of government's size and influence would keep Bonnie Dumanis from dictating which MMJ dispensary I get to choose, as a trusted partner in my medical treatment.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by contract.dude

that is a lot of people. do you remeber when the Hispanic population had their protests? that was alot of people aso. the million man march.. roe vs ... g8

they should charge protesters 2.00 bucks to be able to protest, to pay for the people it takes to guard, monitor, protect and clean up after the protesting..

Well in order to have a protest like that you have to obtain a permit. That costs money. Said permit also tells you where you can have your protest and for how long. The fees are probably not enough to cover LEOs presence, but are the storm troopers really necessary at every protest?

Back in '03 when the war began I happened to be in Seattle. I was at a really small anti-war protest, I'm talking 100 people or less, and yet the cops were literally everywhere. They had a significant portion of the downtown area blocked off and were prepared for blood. In fact, they seemed to want it. That was a tad excessive, IMO.

[contract.dude]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

Well in order to have a protest like that you have to obtain a permit. That costs money. Said permit also tells you where you can have your protest and for how long. The fees are probably not enough to cover LEOs presence, but are the storm troopers really necessary at every protest?

Back in '03 when the war began I happened to be in Seattle. I was at a really small anti-war protest, I'm talking 100 people or less, and yet the cops were literally everywhere. They had a significant portion of the downtown area blocked off and were prepared for blood. In fact, they seemed to want it. That was a tad excessive, IMO.

i dont know if we have seen "storm troopers" yet in this country, i think of those dudes in russia that break up people gathering as those kinda people...those guys go in and crack heads and take them people away not to be seen sometimes ever again...



i have seen supper troopers though!!!

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by contract.dude

i dont know if we have seen "storm troopers" yet in this country, i think of those dudes in russia that break up people gathering as those kinda people...those guys go in and crack heads and take them people away not to be seen sometimes ever again...



i have seen supper troopers though!!!

Storm tropper's kind of an esoteric way of refering to the SWAT/Riot gear cops. Have ya ever been to a protest? Cause I've seen cops do some nasty and excessive stuff. Things are a lot better now than they were back in the 50's and 60's, but still. Ya learn an awful lot about how this country really works by attending a protest, especially during the outbreak of a popular war IMO. Suffice to say, it ain't pretty.

[Night Train]

I wonder where all these people were when Bush was tripling the size of the government? I guess the same place as the anti-war protestors that are now asleep despite the fact that Obama has expanded the wars....people need to open their eyes and realize that their party leaders are betraying them on multiple fronts.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by Night Train

I wonder where all these people were when Bush was tripling the size of the government? I guess the same place as the anti-war protestors that are now asleep despite the fact that Obama has expanded the wars....people need to open their eyes and realize that their party leaders are betraying them on multiple fronts.

No offense dude, but you're dead wrong about the anti-war movement. There's protests every year on the anniversary of the war, including this past year during Obama's administration. Just because you didn't see them on the evening news doesn't mean they've disappeared.

[Night Train]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

No offense dude, but you're dead wrong about the anti-war movement. There's protests every year on the anniversary of the war, including this past year during Obama's administration. Just because you didn't see them on the evening news doesn't mean they've disappeared.

I never said there weren't small protests here and there but there is nothing like it was when Bush was in office. Cindy Sheehan is one I can think of that actually cares about no wars rather than no Bush. I'm talking about the millions that have gone into a coma now that Obamas in office. And why do you think the reporting on anti-war protests has become nearly non-existent? coincidence? Or favorable reporting? Or are they not as newsworthy?

Take a look at the major protests that had been covered by the media during Bush years and then look at what is happening now and tell me the anti-war movement is as strong as it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest...t_the_Iraq_War

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by Night Train

I never said there weren't small protests here and there but there is nothing like it was when Bush was in office. Cindy Sheehan is one I can think of that actually cares about no wars rather than no Bush. I'm talking about the millions that have gone into a coma now that Obamas in office. And why do you think the reporting on anti-war protests has become nearly non-existent? coincidence? Or favorable reporting? Or are they not as newsworthy?

Take a look at the major protests that had been covered by the media during Bush years and then look at what is happening now and tell me the anti-war movement is as strong as it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest...t_the_Iraq_War

Of course there were more protests when the war began than there are now. Anti-war sentiment is fickle like anything else. I didn't say that the anti-war movement was as strong now as it was in, oh I don't know, 2003. But your self righteous remarks about the anti-war protesters being "asleep" and/or in a "coma" now that Obama's in office are false.

FYI, the national media more or less quit covering the protests the minute they started to dwindle in numbers. That's nothing new. It didn't start nor end with Bush.

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

Back in '03 when the war began I happened to be in Seattle. I was at a really small anti-war protest, I'm talking 100 people or less, and yet the cops were literally everywhere. They had a significant portion of the downtown area blocked off and were prepared for blood. In fact, they seemed to want it. That was a tad excessive, IMO.

Heh... I was living in downtown Seattle while serving an internship for the Audio Engineering school I went to in Arizona. I was there during the WTO riot of '99... they had blocked off the area of 3rd Street that I lived on for a couple hours and I couldn't even get to my apartment. Shit was ridiculous.

Po-pos were in full riot gear on one side of the street while a bunch of screaming nuts were on the other side, some of them sporting gas masks... I just sat off to the side and watched the whole thing. It never really got out of control there, but when I finally got home, I had the news on and they broadcast live footage of a cop blasting some dude in the groin with a bean bag gun when he wasn't even doing anything. Just walking down the street, keeping to himself, and then... POW! Dude just hunched over in pain... I was so pissed off! That shit was caught on camera, and I don't recall if the pig was ever reprimanded for it.

When I went outside the next day, all over downtown there was dumpsters overturned in the middle of the street, a lot of windows broken, and graffiti everywhere. Such a beautiful city looked like such a ghetto after those couple of days.

That's probably why they took that anti-war rally so seriously. Didn't want a repeat...

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by Cannabliss

Heh... I was living in downtown Seattle while serving an internship for the Audio Engineering school I went to in Arizona. I was there during the WTO riot of '99... they had blocked off the area of 3rd Street that I lived on for a couple hours and I couldn't even get to my apartment. Shit was ridiculous.

Po-pos were in full riot gear on one side of the street while a bunch of screaming nuts were on the other side, some of them sporting gas masks... I just sat off to the side and watched the whole thing. It never really got out of control there, but when I finally got home, I had the news on and they broadcast live footage of a cop blasting some dude in the groin with a bean bag gun when he wasn't even doing anything. Just walking down the street, keeping to himself, and then... POW! Dude just hunched over in pain... I was so pissed off! That shit was caught on camera, and I don't recall if the pig was ever reprimanded for it.

When I went outside the next day, all over downtown there was dumpsters overturned in the middle of the street, a lot of windows broken, and graffiti everywhere. Such a beautiful city looked like such a ghetto after those couple of days.

That's probably why they took that anti-war rally so seriously. Didn't want a repeat...

Oh yeah, for sure. I knew a dude who was involved in the WTO protest and he said basically the same thing. He was taking pictures of the whole thing until the cops broke his camera.

WTO wasn't exactly fresh in my mind when I was there back in '03. But slowly it dawned on me that Seattle wasn't down with being the epicenter of chaotic violence again. I figured that's why the cops seemed so eager to beat the shit outta us hippies

I remember this one cop standing down on the corner at Pioneer Square with this friggin massive billy club in his hands. I calmly approached him and asked if he intended to use that thing. He clenched his teeth at me and growled, "I suggest you stay on THAT side of the line!" He was refering to the cone barricade that was supposed to seperate the nonexist mob of protesters from the rest of civil society. Needless to say, he scared the living shit out me lil ole' me. I straight up booked it back to the pier!

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

Oh yeah, for sure. I knew a dude who was involved in the WTO protest and he said basically the same thing. He was taking pictures of the whole thing until the cops broke his camera.

WTO wasn't exactly fresh in my mind when I was there back in '03. But slowly it dawned on me that Seattle wasn't down with being the epicenter of chaotic violence again. I figured that's why the cops seemed so eager to beat the shit outta us hippies

I remember this one cop standing down on the corner at Pioneer Square with this friggin massive billy club in his hands. I calmly approached him and asked if he intended to use that thing. He clenched his teeth at me and growled, "I suggest you stay on THAT side of the line!" He was refering to the cone barricade that was supposed to seperate the nonexist mob of protesters from the rest of civil society. Needless to say, he scared the living shit out me lil ole' me. I straight up booked it back to the pier!

Pioneer Square! I loved that little neighborhood. I had a part-time job at the CD Warehouse right there on the corner of 1st and Marion! Did you ever eat at the pizza place there? Damn I forgot the name, but they sell by the slice and serve it on paper plates... Kinda cheap, but the pies were delicious. The dude who worked there was a "hippie" too... he was always telling me how classic rock like SRV and Yes was "the real shit".

Seattle cops ain't that bad as a whole though. I saw a couple of them get a little overly rough with a crackhead once, that wasn't cool... but they were mostly mellow from what I saw. Damn... Seattle... the memories are coming back. One thing about Seattle that always stood out in my mind was how many people smoked crack. Out in the open too. Pretty interesting...

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by Cannabliss

Pioneer Square! I loved that little neighborhood. I had a part-time job at the CD Warehouse right there on the corner of 1st and Marion! Did you ever eat at the pizza place there? Damn I forgot the name, but they sell by the slice and serve it on paper plates... Kinda cheap, but the pies were delicious. The dude who worked there was a "hippie" too... he was always telling me how classic rock like SRV and Yes was "the real shit".

Seattle cops ain't that bad as a whole though. I saw a couple of them get a little overly rough with a crackhead once, that wasn't cool... but they were mostly mellow from what I saw. Damn... Seattle... the memories are coming back. One thing about Seattle that always stood out in my mind was how many people smoked crack. Out in the open too. Pretty interesting...

Never ate at that pizza place. Wish I had!

I think the cops in Seattle are a lot like the cops in Oregon when it comes to drugs. They've got a really hands off policy and only bother dealers and users if they're absolutely forced to. From what I saw, the biggest difference between the scene in the Northwest and the Socal scene is that there's virtually no street gangs up north. Consequently, their drug scene is more or less nonviolent, so the cops don't bother.

That's the impression I got anyway. The weird thing was that the cops would completely ignore street dealers, public intoxication, etc, and zero in on ME. I stayed up there for 2 years and wow. I've never had cops all up on me like that in my entire life, and I sure hope it never happens again!

[superface13]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

The weird thing was that the cops would completely ignore street dealers, public intoxication, etc, and zero in on ME. I stayed up there for 2 years and wow. I've never had cops all up on me like that in my entire life, and I sure hope it never happens again!

I've never met you but from what I've read about you, you are a cute little blond girl. That's why the cops were always up in your grill. Maybe the Seattle rains get them depressed and your cuteness livens them up

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by superface13

I've never met you but from what I've read about you, you are a cute little blond girl. That's why the cops were always up in your grill. Maybe the Seattle rains get them depressed and your cuteness livens them up

Awwww, thanks sweetie!

The rain up there definitely gets to people's brains. No joke. I left the northwest with a firm belief that the incessant rain causes brain mold.