[BrattonBasher]

Intel Services Didn't Tell Congress About Spy Ops - Political News - FOXNews.com

Hopefully this will end the most ridiculous contention that I have ever seen politicians attempt to forward: that Nancy Pelosi knew about or was somehow then responsible for torture. Obviously under Bush the CIA lied all the freaking time about torture and rendition. Then they SCREAMED BLOODY MURDER AND ACCUSED PELOSI OF TREASON when she said the CIA lied to her about waterboarding.

NOW IT'S TIME FOR OBAMA TO GROW A PAIR AND PROSECUTE ALL WHO BROKE LAWS DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION!!!

[CarlSagan]

I don't understand why the dems had such a modest response to the republicans when they started making this accusation. She never knew, there was no evidence that they told her, and now we know...they did lie.

Obama keeps playing to the center and walking right into their trap.

at least some in congress are doing what they can to shed light on GOP and fox new's slander of pelosi

[Sir smokes-A-Lot]

I remember I was filling my tank at the gas station when Bush was still president and you know those little screans they have now at gas stations so you can see some tv when you fill your tank? Well they had a story on the news on waterboarding thats going on under the torture and right away the screan turned off. I found that interresting like the gas companies didnt want the public to know the truth or something. Maybe something happened with there tv screens but probably not they probably turned it off on purpose. I agree though Obama should prosecute those under the Bush administration.

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by Sir smokes-A-Lot

I remember I was filling my tank at the gas station when Bush was still president and you know those little screans they have now at gas stations so you can see some tv when you fill your tank? Well they had a story on the news on waterboarding thats going on under the torture and right away the screan turned off. I found that inter resting like the gas companies didnt want the public to know the truth or something. Maybe something happened with there tv screens but probably not they probably turned it off on purpose. I agree though Obama should prosecute those under the Bush administration.

I remember years ago when a person went on 20/20 and claimed we torture. I was amazed, but to be honest I did not believe him!!! I felt there was no way we as a country would just jettison all we were taught about moral superiority and go ahead and grovel with the lowest of the low. Boy was I stupid!

[Justonevoice]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

I remember years ago when a person went on 20/20 and claimed we torture. I was amazed, but to be honest I did not believe him!!! I felt there was no way we as a country would just jettison all we were taught about moral superiority and go ahead and grovel with the lowest of the low. Boy was I stupid!

I have got news for you , we have been torturing for many moons but we have called it by diffent names but the end result is still torture. And itcomes as no surprise to me that we have been,had been and will be lied to by our government.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by Justonevoice

I have got news for you , we have been torturing for many moons but we have called it by diffent names but the end result is still torture. And itcomes as no surprise to me that we have been,had been and will be lied to by our government.

Word. This government has been a farce since its inception. The more I learn about it, the more disgusted I become. Honestly, I don't know why I keep trying to discover the truth because every time I do, I'm simply horrified. I's too sensitive for this crap!

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by Sir smokes-A-Lot

I remember I was filling my tank at the gas station when Bush was still president and you know those little screans they have now at gas stations so you can see some tv when you fill your tank? Well they had a story on the news on waterboarding thats going on under the torture and right away the screan turned off. I found that interresting like the gas companies didnt want the public to know the truth or something. Maybe something happened with there tv screens but probably not they probably turned it off on purpose. I agree though Obama should prosecute those under the Bush administration.

Wow. Eerie. I agree- let's prosecute the shit out of'em!

[stanley]

BrattonBasher,

For such a dedicated liberal you sure spend a lot of time listening to Limbaugh and Faux News et al.....<grin>

First-- I am not here to deny that abuses occurred during the BUSH administration. I am a conservative, not an idiot.

But, I would challenge you to look a bit further.

Torture, as a means to extract info has gone on in every administration since Washington's.

Yes, we like to tell the world that we are pure as the driven snow, that we ALWAYS hold up individual rights and freedoms, but history has proven over and over that isnt true.

Look at the treatment given to American Indians during the Indian wars... look at our history of slavery. Look at the treatment, by both sides, of the prisoners during the Civil War.

Look at the Japanese internment camps of WWII.

Look at the methods used by the CIA in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War.

So, it might be more appropriate to examine our historical committment to "no torture" before we decide to convene a modern Nuremburg panel for the most recent Bush administration. If you cast that net, you might catch more in it than you really intend.

On a completely different level, on a completely different tangent...

A practical question. How do you fight an enemy who is willing to use methods you find morally repugnant? How do you face a terrorist, planning the death of who knows how many, and stop without the answers you need to prevent his attack?

The real world is never black and white. It is always shades of grey.

If you had your child's kidnapper tied to a chair, in your garage... he knew where he was, he had the info to safely return your child home...

Would you read him the Bible, or pull his fingernails out?

God forbid anything even remotely like that should ever happen.

But, I think you see my point. When Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon/Ford/Carter/Reagan/Bush I/Clinton/Bush II/Obama were/are faced with overwhelming evil forces... forces with complete disregard for human rights and dignity, forces who will not respond to civilized attempts to resolve conflict... but forces that represent a very real threat... do you fight fire with fire?

The military often uses the phrase "practical military necessity".

It is not a judgement of right or wrong. It is just a description of the options open to achieve a goal. Sometimes, those options are UGLY.

But, then, WAR _is_ ugly.

And sometimes, I wonder if the folks here in the US even realize that we are at WAR--- a war for our very existence.

I admit to a biased point of view... for a long time, I have harbored the conviction that the vast majority of Americans are NIMBY's... They dont give a flying fuck what happens anywhere else, as long as it is "Not In My Back Yard"--- and by that I mean they are perfectly happy to send an all volunteer military across the world to fight and die, to use whatever means it takes to prevail... but God forbid, dont tell me the details.

They want to be able to puff themselves up with moral outrage over the UGLY aspects of war... killing civilian kids, bombing churches and hospitals. But they wont do a fucking thing to stop the war, because its "NIMBY".

sorry, rant mode off/

Did the CIA lie to Pelosi... yup. Did Pelosi "know" about torture? Do you suppose she is at least as perceptive as I am? (God lets hope she is WAAAY more perceptive)... do you suppose she has read the same history that I have? Are you going to tell me she DIDNT know there was torture going on in the name of the US?--- I am more than willing to admit she probably didnt know the precise street addresses where it occurred, or the names and ages of the torturers... but she damn well knew it was going on...she and every other member of Congress. If they DIDNT know, they should be impeached for being imbeciles, numb to the facts and history surrounding them.

This is just partisan politics, nothing more.

[VooDoo Chile]

There's lots of empirical data showing that torture isn't just morally reprehensible; it's also totally ineffective. Bottom line- you'll say virtually anything to stop someone from physically harming you.

Torture Does Not Yield Useful Information

Brain Study Shows Torture Doesn't Work - TalkLeft: The Politics Of Crime

New Study Shows That Torturing People Makes Them Forget the Facts You Want Them to Confess | Popular Science

As the study in the last link demonstrates, torture also significantly harms the individual performing the procedures as well. In essence, torture ain't no zero-sum game. It's a resounding loss no matter how ya slice it.

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by stanley

BrattonBasher,

For such a dedicated liberal you sure spend a lot of time listening to Limbaugh and Faux News et al.....<grin>

First-- I am not here to deny that abuses occurred during the BUSH administration. I am a conservative, not an idiot.

But, I would challenge you to look a bit further.

Torture, as a means to extract info has gone on in every administration since Washington's.

Yes, we like to tell the world that we are pure as the driven snow, that we ALWAYS hold up individual rights and freedoms, but history has proven over and over that isnt true.

Look at the treatment given to American Indians during the Indian wars... look at our history of slavery. Look at the treatment, by both sides, of the prisoners during the Civil War.

Look at the Japanese internment camps of WWII.

Look at the methods used by the CIA in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War.

So, it might be more appropriate to examine our historical committment to "no torture" before we decide to convene a modern Nuremburg panel for the most recent Bush administration. If you cast that net, you might catch more in it than you really intend.

On a completely different level, on a completely different tangent...

A practical question. How do you fight an enemy who is willing to use methods you find morally repugnant? How do you face a terrorist, planning the death of who knows how many, and stop without the answers you need to prevent his attack?

The real world is never black and white. It is always shades of grey.

If you had your child's kidnapper tied to a chair, in your garage... he knew where he was, he had the info to safely return your child home...

Would you read him the Bible, or pull his fingernails out?

God forbid anything even remotely like that should ever happen.

But, I think you see my point. When Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon/Ford/Carter/Reagan/Bush I/Clinton/Bush II/Obama were/are faced with overwhelming evil forces... forces with complete disregard for human rights and dignity, forces who will not respond to civilized attempts to resolve conflict... but forces that represent a very real threat... do you fight fire with fire?

The military often uses the phrase "practical military necessity".

It is not a judgement of right or wrong. It is just a description of the options open to achieve a goal. Sometimes, those options are UGLY.

But, then, WAR _is_ ugly.

And sometimes, I wonder if the folks here in the US even realize that we are at WAR--- a war for our very existence.

I admit to a biased point of view... for a long time, I have harbored the conviction that the vast majority of Americans are NIMBY's... They dont give a flying fuck what happens anywhere else, as long as it is "Not In My Back Yard"--- and by that I mean they are perfectly happy to send an all volunteer military across the world to fight and die, to use whatever means it takes to prevail... but God forbid, dont tell me the details.

They want to be able to puff themselves up with moral outrage over the UGLY aspects of war... killing civilian kids, bombing churches and hospitals. But they wont do a fucking thing to stop the war, because its "NIMBY".

sorry, rant mode off/

Did the CIA lie to Pelosi... yup. Did Pelosi "know" about torture? Do you suppose she is at least as perceptive as I am? (God lets hope she is WAAAY more perceptive)... do you suppose she has read the same history that I have? Are you going to tell me she DIDNT know there was torture going on in the name of the US?--- I am more than willing to admit she probably didnt know the precise street addresses where it occurred, or the names and ages of the torturers... but she damn well knew it was going on...she and every other member of Congress. If they DIDNT know, they should be impeached for being imbeciles, numb to the facts and history surrounding them.

This is just partisan politics, nothing more.

Catch and prosecute all who broke the law IMHO, throw out the net and whomever is guilty is guilty. The problem with the hypothetical you propose is that who is to say the person knows anything. We waterboarded the same guy hundreds of times and got nothing. I would never personally condone an illegal and immoral action because of similar activities at another point in history. Our laws are very clear in regards to torture, and should not be contingent on politics or convienence. The very same people who savaged Pelosi about torture knowledge would have been the very first to yell TRAITOR if she went to the press or attempted to interject. This was top secret shit, there is no provision or recourse I know of that would have enabled Pelosi to do anything about what the CIA and Bush Administration told her or did not tell her. I do not feel this is partisan politics at all, this is about breaking the law. I will lose alot of respect for Obama if he lets this slide, and letting it slide would be the easy way out.

[CarlSagan]

The Catholic Church was really good at torture during the Spanish Inquisition.

Its called a witch hunt.

Ask someone...are you a witch...they say no.

Pull out their finger nails and ask them again...maybe they will say yes..if not...increase the torture...

after they "confess" to being a witch keep torturing them.

Ask if their neighbor is a witch. If they say no...keep torturing until they say yes.

The go torture that neighbor until he confesses and names someone else as a witch.

Inflicting pain on someone doesn't get them to tell the truth...it gets them to say whatever they can to get you to stop.


During WWII the Japanese would torture American Soldiers. The Japanese didn't do it to learn more about the Allied forces...they did it to extract false confessions to be used against American. They tortured American soldiers into saying they are sympathetic to Japan.

Before Don't ask Don't Tell, the military did the same with gays in the military. Instead of torturing soldiers into confessing they are gay, they would threaten soldiers with prison until the soldier admitted being gay and named other gay soldiers (in exchange for a dishonerable discharge over jailtime). This policy ended up in straight soldiers admitting to being gay just to stay out of jail!!!!

The same thing happened during the Communist Red Scare of the 40, 50, 60s, etc

Torture feels good if you are seeking revenge or if you are a sadist.

But if you want accurate information there is no evidence that torture works...In fact, its only ever been used to extract false confessions...

The problem isnt that torture is moral or immoral (although I tend to think its immoral).

The problem is torture doesn't make anyone safer. It simply feels good (like the death penatly, but thats for another rant...)

[Au_Hunter]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

Intel Services Didn't Tell Congress About Spy Ops - Political News - FOXNews.com

Hopefully this will end the most ridiculous contention that I have ever seen politicians attempt to forward: that Nancy Pelosi knew about or was somehow then responsible for torture. Obviously under Bush the CIA lied all the freaking time about torture and rendition. Then they SCREAMED BLOODY MURDER AND ACCUSED PELOSI OF TREASON when she said the CIA lied to her about waterboarding.

NOW IT'S TIME FOR OBAMA TO GROW A PAIR AND PROSECUTE ALL WHO BROKE LAWS DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION!!!

Robert Litt is chief counsel for the Director of National Intelligence. He testified before the House Intelligence Committee Tuesday that the spies didn't tell Congress about a small number of operations.

A small number, so the majority of operations were told to Congress... Hmmm

Litt did not discuss what sorts of activities the intelligence services failed to disclose to lawmakers or which agencies were not thorough in briefing Congress.

Someone must be privy to Top Secrets inside the CIA to make such a jump on so little information about what was or was not disussed with Congress.

What is a lie

Failure or even an intentional failure to disclosed isn't included.

So, to refreash my memory I went searching and found this...

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002

Gives much info as to whom, what, where, but I don't see any conformation for or against the differences of recollections on the CIA briefings and the original article fails to clarify what was included and what was not included.

It does conclude that not 100% of all info was discussed in CIA briefings, but it fails to conclude that CIA intentionally hid facts from Congress or that CIA lied all the time as asserted.

[contract.dude]

there are prisoners at our local state prisons that say that they are not getting their rogaine or viagra is a form of torture.. or soft pillows.. they bring law suits and the state pays 50,000 to settle.. where are we going with this? (as a society)

you start paying people a line will form.. a very long line.. torture could have been shooting some kids goat in iraq.....

[dwynn8822]

Personally i don't see what the big deal is about waterboarding ............ My wife used to do it to me on a weekly basis, maybe that was TMI

[silvercloud]

One would think in this day/age of exotic pharma ,that a reliable "truth serum" could replace any other kind of torture ~ that is all

[HBMike222]

I'm impressed. A very thoughtful discussion about a contentious issue that doesn't break down into personal attacks and accusations of stupidity. Not bad for a bunch of stoners :)

Bottom line: torture is wrong and war is a waste. Stop this misguided attempt at nation building and bring our troops home. We've got some pretty urgent issues to solve right here.

[contract.dude]

they could get them hooked on smak and not give them a fix to get them to talk.. french connection sorta stuff... I think it was that movie..

[joe32blow]

What makes you think they still aren't using torture under Obama?

[stanley]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

Catch and prosecute all who broke the law IMHO, throw out the net and whomever is guilty is guilty. The problem with the hypothetical you propose is that who is to say the person knows anything. We waterboarded the same guy hundreds of times and got nothing. I would never personally condone an illegal and immoral action because of similar activities at another point in history. Our laws are very clear in regards to torture, and should not be contingent on politics or convienence. The very same people who savaged Pelosi about torture knowledge would have been the very first to yell TRAITOR if she went to the press or attempted to interject. This was top secret shit, there is no provision or recourse I know of that would have enabled Pelosi to do anything about what the CIA and Bush Administration told her or did not tell her. I do not feel this is partisan politics at all, this is about breaking the law. I will lose alot of respect for Obama if he lets this slide, and letting it slide would be the easy way out.

Look, I am not arguing that torture is acceptable. I am not arguing that it gives quality results. But, like it or not, it delivers SOME results--and in the real world, sometimes, SOME results are all you can hope for....

But, it is used by ALL sides, in every conflict. Like it or not, it is the reality.

BB, its nice that, in your opinion "Catch and prosecute all who broke the law IMHO".

So, who shall we prosecute? The guy turning on the water for the water boarding? Or his boss? or his boss? or his boss? or the section chief in the CIA? or Leon Panetta?--- who works for Obama.

Truman had a sign on his desk--"The buck stops here"--

So, shall we prosecute Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush et al?

Will that assuage your guilt over having the torture conducted in your name? What have you done to prevent it? Maybe we should also prosecute the voters who enabled the torture in the first place?

"I remember years ago when a person went on 20/20 and claimed we torture. I was amazed, but to be honest I did not believe him!!! I felt there was no way we as a country would just jettison all we were taught about moral superiority and go ahead and grovel with the lowest of the low. Boy was I stupid! "

YOU knew about it years ago, but you now want to prosecute Bush?

Obama would be subject to the same prosecution, since the practices are still going on, or have we decided to ignore that?

And you still say it isnt politics as usual.

[VooDoo Chile]

Stanely- I'm down to prosecute ANYONE who gave the green light to torture.

[contract.dude]

i want to know who makes the rules to say what is torture... i got my wifes cooking... thats some bad stuff...

would lining up a person and acting like you are going to kill them by firing squad be torture? how about no blanket on a cold night..

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by contract.dude

i want to know who makes the rules to say what is torture... i got my wifes cooking... thats some bad stuff...

would lining up a person and acting like you are going to kill them by firing squad be torture? how about no blanket on a cold night..

That's part of the problem. International laws with respect to torture are just like every other type of statute- extremely vague. Over time, certain practicies have become designated as torture by the UN, etc. and one of them happens to be waterboarding. Our government convicted a Japanese soldier of war crimes i.e. torture for using water boarding during WWII, so there's definitive precedent for water boarding qualifying as torture.

[CarlSagan]

Originally Posted by stanley

But, it is used by ALL sides, in every conflict. Like it or not, it is the reality.

But torture is used for different times for different reasons. Historically, most of the time torture was used to extract a false confession. It is only when people are blinded by fear that they resort to torture for true confessions.

Please tell me. By what psychological or physiological process does torture result in an honest confession? Is the "truth" part of the brain activate by simulated drowning?

If it only works "some of the time" then that doesnt really help in one of those "10 minutes till the hidden bomb goes off" scenarios.

...and yes...shooting a kid's goat is torture! Would you cut the head off of a child's puppy to get his father to confess? Even if you find this acceptable. Why and how would it work? and do you think that child like America more or after his pet was decapitated?

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by Au_Hunter

A small number, so the majority of operations were told to Congress... Hmmm



Someone must be privy to Top Secrets inside the CIA to make such a jump on so little information about what was or was not disussed with Congress.

What is a lie

Failure or even an intentional failure to disclosed isn't included.

So, to refreash my memory I went searching and found this...

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002

Gives much info as to whom, what, where, but I don't see any conformation for or against the differences of recollections on the CIA briefings and the original article fails to clarify what was included and what was not included.

It does conclude that not 100% of all info was discussed in CIA briefings, but it fails to conclude that CIA intentionally hid facts from Congress or that CIA lied all the time as asserted.

t r u t h o u t | Democrats: CIA Lied to or Misled Congress at Least Five Times Since 2001

Here is a very recent article that outlines specific instances where the CIA lied to Congress, which is a crime. I am a little puzzled why a 2007 article is germaine to this discussion. Obviously when the CIA destroyed the torture videos they were both committing a crime and hiding some nasty shit. Yes, that is opinion. This is no small matter. There is absolutely no oversight of the CIA if they lie or mislead. That is why it's a crime to mislead Congress. Does not really matter if it is "small" or big, large or extra large, it's a crime. And whomever did it should have to pay.

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by stanley

Look, I am not arguing that torture is acceptable. I am not arguing that it gives quality results. But, like it or not, it delivers SOME results--and in the real world, sometimes, SOME results are all you can hope for....

But, it is used by ALL sides, in every conflict. Like it or not, it is the reality.

BB, its nice that, in your opinion "Catch and prosecute all who broke the law IMHO".

So, who shall we prosecute? The guy turning on the water for the water boarding? Or his boss? or his boss? or his boss? or the section chief in the CIA? or Leon Panetta?--- who works for Obama.

Truman had a sign on his desk--"The buck stops here"--

So, shall we prosecute Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush et al?

Will that assuage your guilt over having the torture conducted in your name? What have you done to prevent it? Maybe we should also prosecute the voters who enabled the torture in the first place?

"I remember years ago when a person went on 20/20 and claimed we torture. I was amazed, but to be honest I did not believe him!!! I felt there was no way we as a country would just jettison all we were taught about moral superiority and go ahead and grovel with the lowest of the low. Boy was I stupid! "

YOU knew about it years ago, but you now want to prosecute Bush?

Obama would be subject to the same prosecution, since the practices are still going on, or have we decided to ignore that?

And you still say it isnt politics as usual.

All who torture and break the law deserve to face the punishment. Obama has pledged to not torture, so if he is still using torture he deserves to be prosecuted as well. I do in fact want Bush and Cheney to have to face the music. Many feel Cheney directed the CIA to lie to Congress. Cheney is not stupid, he knew exactly what he was doing. Bush probably just went along, but that makes him culpable as well under the law.