[gopers]

Well, the house has passed the health care bill. Now lets see if it passes the senate. Amazing what some of the language says that is in it.

Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com

What the Pelosi Health-Care Bill Really Says


By BETSY MCCAUGHEY

The health bill that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is bringing to a vote (H.R. 3962) is 1,990 pages. Here are some of the details you need to know.

What the government will require you to do:

• Sec. 202 (p. 91-92) of the bill requires you to enroll in a "qualified plan." If you get your insurance at work, your employer will have a "grace period" to switch you to a "qualified plan," meaning a plan designed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. If you buy your own insurance, there's no grace period. You'll have to enroll in a qualified plan as soon as any term in your contract changes, such as the co-pay, deductible or benefit.

• Sec. 224 (p. 118) provides that 18 months after the bill becomes law, the Secretary of Health and Human Services will decide what a "qualified plan" covers and how much you'll be legally required to pay for it. That's like a banker telling you to sign the loan agreement now, then filling in the interest rate and repayment terms 18 months later.

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.

• Sec. 303 (pp. 167-168) makes it clear that, although the "qualified plan" is not yet designed, it will be of the "one size fits all" variety. The bill claims to offer choice—basic, enhanced and premium levels—but the benefits are the same. Only the co-pays and deductibles differ. You will have to enroll in the same plan, whether the government is paying for it or you and your employer are footing the bill.

• Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.

• Sec. 412 (p. 272) says that employers must provide a "qualified plan" for their employees and pay 72.5% of the cost, and a smaller share of family coverage, or incur an 8% payroll tax. Small businesses, with payrolls from $500,000 to $750,000, are fined less.

Eviscerating Medicare:

In addition to reducing future Medicare funding by an estimated $500 billion, the bill fundamentally changes how Medicare pays doctors and hospitals, permitting the government to dictate treatment decisions.

• Sec. 1302 (pp. 672-692) moves Medicare from a fee-for-service payment system, in which patients choose which doctors to see and doctors are paid for each service they provide, toward what's called a "medical home."

The medical home is this decade's version of HMO-restrictions on care. A primary-care provider manages access to costly specialists and diagnostic tests for a flat monthly fee. The bill specifies that patients may have to settle for a nurse practitioner rather than a physician as the primary-care provider. Medical homes begin with demonstration projects, but the HHS secretary is authorized to "disseminate this approach rapidly on a national basis."

A December 2008 Congressional Budget Office report noted that "medical homes" were likely to resemble the unpopular gatekeepers of 20 years ago if cost control was a priority.

• Sec. 1114 (pp. 391-393) replaces physicians with physician assistants in overseeing care for hospice patients.

• Secs. 1158-1160 (pp. 499-520) initiates programs to reduce payments for patient care to what it costs in the lowest cost regions of the country. This will reduce payments for care (and by implication the standard of care) for hospital patients in higher cost areas such as New York and Florida.

• Sec. 1161 (pp. 520-545) cuts payments to Medicare Advantage plans (used by 20% of seniors). Advantage plans have warned this will result in reductions in optional benefits such as vision and dental care.

• Sec. 1402 (p. 756) says that the results of comparative effectiveness research conducted by the government will be delivered to doctors electronically to guide their use of "medical items and services."

Questionable Priorities:

While the bill will slash Medicare funding, it will also direct billions of dollars to numerous inner-city social work and diversity programs with vague standards of accountability.

• Sec. 399V (p. 1422) provides for grants to community "entities" with no required qualifications except having "documented community activity and experience with community healthcare workers" to "educate, guide, and provide experiential learning opportunities" aimed at drug abuse, poor nutrition, smoking and obesity. "Each community health worker program receiving funds under the grant will provide services in the cultural context most appropriate for the individual served by the program."

These programs will "enhance the capacity of individuals to utilize health services and health related social services under Federal, State and local programs by assisting individuals in establishing eligibility . . . and in receiving services and other benefits" including transportation and translation services.

• Sec. 222 (p. 617) provides reimbursement for culturally and linguistically appropriate services. This program will train health-care workers to inform Medicare beneficiaries of their "right" to have an interpreter at all times and with no co-pays for language services.

• Secs. 2521 and 2533 (pp. 1379 and 1437) establishes racial and ethnic preferences in awarding grants for training nurses and creating secondary-school health science programs. For example, grants for nursing schools should "give preference to programs that provide for improving the diversity of new nurse graduates to reflect changes in the demographics of the patient population." And secondary-school grants should go to schools "graduating students from disadvantaged backgrounds including racial and ethnic minorities."

• Sec. 305 (p. 189) Provides for automatic Medicaid enrollment of newborns who do not otherwise have insurance.



Read the whole damn bill here.................http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us./.../111_ahcaa.pdf

Gee, looks like we will be setting up healthcare facilities along our southern border. You know, they need interpretors. And people on government payroll to tell them they have a legal right to one! WTF!

Well, maybe we can hope this article comes true..........

1993 REDUX CONFRONTS DEMS at DickMorris.com

As Santayana said, “Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.” Congressional Democrats: Take note!

Are the elections of 2009 precursors of the same kind of massive partisan upheaval in Congress that we experienced in 1994? The historical data says yes, they are.


In Virginia, the outcomes in 1993 and 2009 were almost identical. In 1993, after the Democratic incumbent, Doug Wilder, could not seek reelection, the governor’s race pitted Republican George Allen against Democrat Mary Sue Terry. Allen won handily, 58-41 — virtually the same margin by which McDonnell defeated Deeds this week.

And in New Jersey, the parallels between 1993 and 2009 are equally striking. Democrat Jim Florio, then the governor, was seeking his second term against Republican Christie Todd Whitman. Just as in 2009 Chris Christie beat Jon Corzine, so in 1993 Whitman edged out Florio by 49-48. Chris Christie’s margin was bigger, but his vote share was almost identical to Whitman’s.

So if New Jersey and Virginia both behaved the same in 2009 as they did in 1993, will 2010 bring the same kind of sweeping
Republican victory that 1994 did?

And will the Democratic defeats in these two states presage trouble for President Barack Obama’s healthcare proposals in Congress?

Will history repeat itself? It depends on the depth and half-life of Democratic arrogance. If Democratic incumbents from red states start to take account of their own self-interest, the political environment for healthcare legislation in the House and the Senate will change dramatically. Democrats like Sens. Byron Dorgan (N.D.), Kent Conrad (N.D.), Mark Pryor (Ark.), Blanche Lincoln (Ark.), Mary Landrieu (La.), Evan Bayh (Ind.), Kay Hagan (N.C.) and Ben Nelson (Neb.) will have to rethink their support for a bill that is dragging their party down.

It is clear that healthcare legislation and rising unemployment are exacting a toll on Democratic legislators and cost Corzine and perhaps Deeds the governor’s mansion.

Will Democrats get the message?

If Democratic congressmen and senators continue to believe that they can be saved by Obama or by massive campaign budgets, they have only to look to New Jersey to understand how little either factor counted. Corzine outspent Christie by three to one and Obama campaigned actively in the bluest of blue states for the Democratic governor.
Of course, the 1993-94 political calendar was a time of improving economic news. The recession had ended in 1992 and unemployment was dropping.

The budget deficit was declining. So the worsening job picture so far in 2009 and the dire warnings of a jobless recovery in 2010 make this cycle even more perilous for Democratic incumbents. The message is clear. The handwriting is on the wall. But can Democrats read it?

The recent indication that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) is considering a vote on healthcare reform this coming Saturday, blithely continuing as if the New Jersey and Virginia elections had not turned out the way they did, is evidence that she, at least, cannot read the writing on the wall.

For the House to pass Obama’s healthcare bill five days after so huge a repudiation of the Democratic Party and its program is breathtaking in its arrogance. Voters all over America will get the point: The congressional Democrats don’t give a damn what the voters think.


Maybe some of you will be around in 3 years and we can all discuss how we like our medical services. I know one thing, I think I may just as well shut down my companies, draw unemployment, when that runs out, claim a disability from my Navy days, and I will have my ass wiped the rest of my life by all those suckers who are still paying taxes. Speaking of taxes, did those of you who work notice the cost of our soon to be wonderful proposed cost of our insurance? Of course if you are in a union, our fair feathered friends in congress, the democrats, made sure the strong arms of the socialist, oops, I mean the unions, won't pay anything or very little in additional cost.

So, let me ask this, when business is real shitty, the rich have all moved out of our country and the tax revenues are not coming in to cover all the cost of healthcare, trillion dollar deficits, cap and trade etc. Who will be paying those bills?

Oh I know! Your services will be cut, but don't be afraid comrades, the government officials will live very well, so they can watch over the sheeple.

PS Who wants to bet me the unemployment numbers will keep going up?

[VooDoo Chile]

It ain't single payer, but I'll take it!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eazy]

Welcome to The United Socialist States of America!

The healthcare plan is pure bull-shit!

It still gives corporations, hospitals, and doctors the same massive profits and we get the same over priced and poor health care, shitty educations, corrupt government, hemp prohibition, and corporate oligopolies that continue to strangle Americans to death, literally.

What a huge disappointment. ...Obamanaten truly don't care about us. He's one of them, a corporate money monger.

dumb.

[tooweirdtolivetooraretodie]

Originally Posted by Eazy

Welcome to The United Socialist States of America!

The healthcare plan is pure bull-shit!

It still gives corporations, hospitals, and doctors the same massive profits and we get the same over priced and poor health care, shitty educations, corrupt government, hemp prohibition, and corporate oligopolies that continue to strangle Americans to death, literally.

What a huge disappointment. ...Obamanaten truly don't care about us. He's one of them, a corporate money monger.

dumb.

The foolish masses, too dumbed down by food additives, mindless TV and decades of under funded schools, seem to like the idea of the government deciding what is best for them. The pathetic morons getting churned out by our current "education" system, can't event spell socialism, let alone define it. Of course they don't see what's happening around them.

[DankJews]

Lets Hope Something Good Happens, But Who Knows We Like To Play Lots Of Games!

.:Stay Medicated:.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by tooweirdtolivetooraretodie

The foolish masses, too dumbed down by food additives, mindless TV and decades of under funded schools, seem to like the idea of the government deciding what is best for them. The pathetic morons getting churned out by our current "education" system, can't event spell socialism, let alone define it. Of course they don't see what's happening around them.

Guess y'all can count me as one of them there "foolish masses" then!

[weedtracker]

Originally Posted by tooweirdtolivetooraretodie

The foolish masses, too dumbed down by food additives, mindless TV and decades of under funded schools, seem to like the idea of the government deciding what is best for them. The pathetic morons getting churned out by our current "education" system, can't event spell socialism, let alone define it. Of course they don't see what's happening around them.

maybe you would prefer the republican plan: dont get sick and die quickly if you do.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by weedtracker

maybe you would prefer the republican plan: dont get sick and die quickly if you do.

Don't forget their innovative suggestion that if you do get sick, you should rely on private, preferably religious, charitable handouts as opposed to government handouts! Remember folks, handouts are 100% kosher when they stem from the private sector! It's only when that satanic government of ours uses its resources to assist people that causes problems!

[juangoodman]

Is this thread about the republican plan? I agree that the republican plan sucks but this was not one of the republicans platforms. This is all about the Blue party!!! Just because this plans sucks does not mean that it's better than the other sucky plan. If it smells like shit, looks like shit...then it don't matter if its Blue or Red ..ITS STILL SHIT!! If Chairman O really wants to reform the health care industry then just get rid of the lobbyists, and make health care a non-profit business. Case closed. This plan will do nothing to lower costs, but it will raise taxes. They still don't know how to pay for this blue monster. This NeoLib (NeoLib= the new socialist democrats) plan reeks of socialism! The Government is TELLING me that I MUST participate in THEIR plan? I do not have a choice? Is that what America has turned into? I could only imagine what our founding fathers would think of this administration FORCING it's citizens to dig deeper into their pockets just to appease Chairman O and the NeoLibs. I am really really really pissed about this!

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by juangoodman

Is this thread about the republican plan? I agree that the republican plan sucks but this was not one of the republicans platforms. This is all about the Blue party!!! Just because this plans sucks does not mean that it's better than the other sucky plan. If it smells like shit, looks like shit...then it don't matter if its Blue or Red ..ITS STILL SHIT!! If Chairman O really wants to reform the health care industry then just get rid of the lobbyists, and make health care a non-profit business. Case closed. This plan will do nothing to lower costs, but it will raise taxes. They still don't know how to pay for this blue monster. This NeoLib (NeoLib= the new socialist democrats) plan reeks of socialism! The Government is TELLING me that I MUST participate in THEIR plan? I do not have a choice? Is that what America has turned into? I could only imagine what our founding fathers would think of this administration FORCING it's citizens to dig deeper into their pockets just to appease Chairman O and the NeoLibs. I am really really really pissed about this!

So I guess you're equally pissed that the government REQUIRES you to purchase auto insurance in order to drive a car?

And for the love of everything holy, let's not bring the Founders into this. Seriously. Why on earth would ya wanna bring in something as convoluted as the diverse opinions of a group of 18th century political theorists?

[ZENITH]

Will it pass??

mabie...ya.. unemployment or back to the union.

so..remember all the dogs an cats dying??

melomine in the dog an cat chow??

well....got news for ya...its been in the wheat gluton for years..why do u think there are so many type 2 diabetics?

now that we owe the chinese 3 trillion dollars..they want to keep us alive..instead of a few chinese owned by the drug companies that poisoned our anaimals..and our burger BUNS and bread or anything that contained imported protien.....with fake protein enhanced.... by using harmfull melomine...so drug companies could sell there drugs..to treat..never cure..NEVER!


the chinese stated thinking..if there are 10 million new diabettics a year in the u.s..who will pay us our 5 trillion??

so now....were goining get new drugs in our food to keep us living longer...

chinese have tested a new drug that makes a rat live 4 times longer!!


3 trillion..5 trillion..10 trillion..there going find new ways to keep us alive to PAY..PAY..PAY..AND U WILL LIVE...AND PAY..AND OUR DOCTORS WILL KEEP U ALIVE..TO PAY..AND IF U DONT PAY..WELL..U WILL WORK ON GOVERMENT SPONSORED TAX REPAYMENT CAMPS!!

FOR PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR!


SO...WE WILL GET WELL...SO WE CAN PAY!

[juangoodman]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

So I guess you're equally pissed that the government REQUIRES you to purchase auto insurance in order to drive a car?

And for the love of everything holy, let's not bring the Founders into this. Seriously. Why on earth would ya wanna bring in something as convoluted as the diverse opinions of a group of 18th century political theorists?

VDC.....I guess you do not understand the underlying problem or I have not satisfactorily explained what it is that we are losing. I have heard that argument several times from the Blue propaganda machine, except I have a mind that can think for itself. As I have already stated we are losing, and what we are losing is not so much dollars but sense and freedom of choice. It's what our wars were fought for. It's what many men have died are dying for. FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!! I can choose not to pay for auto insurance and I'm not sure but I believe there are states where it is not required. I can also opt to not drive. I could make use of public transportation as many others do. It would be a less efficient means of time management but still MY CHOICE. I could carpool with a friend. MY CHOICE. I could ride a bicycle. MY CHOICE. I have presented several options that I have to avoid paying for government mandated auto insurance. If I use any of these options, I cannot be fined or have any punitive measures assessed against me. I have NO CHOICE with this health bill. I MUST PAY FOR AND HAVE Health Insurance now as a citizen of this country or government. I am losing my freedom of choice.

[BrattonBasher]

Betsy McCaughey is just a well-paid liar-shill for the insurance industry. Plain and simple. Google her, it is plain as day. The House bill public option is so watered down that it will not lead to premiums going down, which is what I had hoped. The millions of dollars that the industry is throwing around every day is indeed working. Lieberman has ammassed 1.5 million dollars in his career from the industry, so gee I wonder why he is a shill for them!

[tooweirdtolivetooraretodie]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

Guess y'all can count me as one of them there "foolish masses" then!

I was generalizing, necessary when speaking about a very large group. However, there are exceptions to every rule.
Whether or not you're one of those included in that statement, I don't know you and don't know? In your favor, you seem to spend a good deal of time and burn quite a few calories, questioning and theorizing about the world. You actually seem motivated and genuinely willing to put in more effort than just the flapping of jaws or fingers (on a keyboard). This seems to be more than most do and kudos for that.
Just because I only agree with what you say a small percentage of the time, does not mean I don't respect your opinion and right to it.
It takes all kinds of people and beliefs to balance things out in a democracy.
Beliefs are only "wrong" when they involve attacking or suppressing opposing views by physical force or financial sanctions. etc. In my not so humble opinion.

[tooweirdtolivetooraretodie]

Originally Posted by weedtracker

maybe you would prefer the republican plan: dont get sick and die quickly if you do.

Actually, I'm not all that concerned. I've always planned for the contingency of getting older, even when it was very unlikely I'd need to worry about it. Been to college and been back a few times. Have always worked hard and worked smart. Learned the languages of countries who are up and coming financially, so that I could take advantage of those opportunities. Most people I know, stopped actively learning new things after college. Didn't throw money away on every material "must have" that our consumer culture pushes on people. Have always saved at least 10% of everything I made, even when it really hurt to do so.
While my friends and peers were running around breaking themselves on plasma tv's, suv's, $5 lattes, expensive dinner and drinks at crappy chain restaurants, houses they couldn't actually afford and didn't care to do the math to prove that. Idiots trading online like they're at a table in vegas.
I usually made the exact opposite kind of decisions.
The pay off is, I don't have to worry where my health care is coming from. I don't have to worry about where I'm gonna live or what I'm gonna do. I knew going in to this administration that it would be an expensive 4-8 years. Not that the current administration is solely to blame. Nobody handed me or willed me anything, I did this all on my own. I don't think it makes me any better or worse than anyone else, just more motivated and pragmatic than most of my peers. Anyone who thinks they can't do the same, doesn't deserve it.

[AK420]

Originally Posted by tooweirdtolivetooraretodie

The foolish masses, too dumbed down by food additives, mindless TV and decades of under funded schools, seem to like the idea of the government deciding what is best for them. The pathetic morons getting churned out by our current "education" system, can't event spell socialism, let alone define it. Of course they don't see what's happening around them.

to be honest the FDA would like all of us dead, dumb and enslaved, or locked up. which is alllmmost how it is anyways....if americans doesnt start lettin down their pride and prejudice to start working together towards a real revolution we're going to soon be stuck in the problems we let happen unknowingly. IF that hasnt happend already.............too many people worring about "problems" and selfish inquiries to apreciate the amazing blessings already in their daily lives!!

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by AK420

to be honest the FDA would like all of us dead, dumb and enslaved, or locked up. which is alllmmost how it is anyways....if americans doesnt start lettin down their pride and prejudice to start working together towards a real revolution we're going to soon be stuck in the problems we let happen unknowingly. IF that hasnt happend already..

Go ahead and post your nonsense, many Americans died for that right. But America is capitalized, not lower case. It's real easy to spout bullshit about the FDA while they protect your ungrateful ass from corporate interests that would gladly poison you for money. Spinach and lettuce come to mind...

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by juangoodman

VDC.....I guess you do not understand the underlying problem or I have not satisfactorily explained what it is that we are losing. I have heard that argument several times from the Blue propaganda machine, except I have a mind that can think for itself. As I have already stated we are losing, and what we are losing is not so much dollars but sense and freedom of choice. It's what our wars were fought for. It's what many men have died are dying for. FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!! I can choose not to pay for auto insurance and I'm not sure but I believe there are states where it is not required. I can also opt to not drive. I could make use of public transportation as many others do. It would be a less efficient means of time management but still MY CHOICE. I could carpool with a friend. MY CHOICE. I could ride a bicycle. MY CHOICE. I have presented several options that I have to avoid paying for government mandated auto insurance. If I use any of these options, I cannot be fined or have any punitive measures assessed against me. I have NO CHOICE with this health bill. I MUST PAY FOR AND HAVE Health Insurance now as a citizen of this country or government. I am losing my freedom of choice.

So I suppose you're all bent outta shape over the lack of "freedom of choice" when it comes to compulsory education up to age 16 then?

I could do this all day dude. Round, 'n round, 'n round we'll go.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by tooweirdtolivetooraretodie

I was generalizing, necessary when speaking about a very large group. However, there are exceptions to every rule.
Whether or not you're one of those included in that statement, I don't know you and don't know? In your favor, you seem to spend a good deal of time and burn quite a few calories, questioning and theorizing about the world. You actually seem motivated and genuinely willing to put in more effort than just the flapping of jaws or fingers (on a keyboard). This seems to be more than most do and kudos for that.
Just because I only agree with what you say a small percentage of the time, does not mean I don't respect your opinion and right to it.
It takes all kinds of people and beliefs to balance things out in a democracy.
Beliefs are only "wrong" when they involve attacking or suppressing opposing views by physical force or financial sanctions. etc. In my not so humble opinion.

No, no, no! Come back when you're ready to rant 'n rave about how I outta be deported to a socialist country where my rheotric will be welcomed!

[gopers]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

So I guess you're equally pissed that the government REQUIRES you to purchase auto insurance in order to drive a car?

Driving is a privilege,not a right, thats why the state governments can require auto insurance in order to drive.

[juangoodman]

Originally Posted by VooDoo Chile

So I suppose you're all bent outta shape over the lack of "freedom of choice" when it comes to compulsory education up to age 16 then?

I could do this all day dude. Round, 'n round, 'n round we'll go.

[tooweirdtolivetooraretodie]

Originally Posted by AK420

to be honest the FDA would like all of us dead, dumb and enslaved, or locked up. which is alllmmost how it is anyways....if americans doesnt start lettin down their pride and prejudice to start working together towards a real revolution we're going to soon be stuck in the problems we let happen unknowingly. IF that hasnt happend already.............too many people worring about "problems" and selfish inquiries to apreciate the amazing blessings already in their daily lives!!

Not that I can't relate to being cynical and wanting to believe these people all have an evil agenda. Thus making it easy for me to rationalize and envision, for a very short time, the torture and dismemberment of the employees of many of these alphabet soup bureaucracies.
Taking the reigns back over from my little pissed off, mohawked, doc martins and misfits shirt wearing inner child. I realize that it's very doubtful that most of this can be chalked up to that kind of forethought and wickedness. Slow mindedness, small minds, greed and laziness amongst the government employees in question, is far more realistic. It exists in every other agency, why not the FDA? It would seem people take those jobs for an easy and non intellectually challenging ride to a pension. It's also not like there is not ample information about proper nutrition out there for those who grasp it's significance. There's also common sense, the further you get from your foods source, the less healthy it is. There's no shortage of better options here these days as people are waking up to the importance of local and sustainable food production vs corporate food production and supply. Albeit, very, very slowly.
I f*in' love funions and mcdonalds ..everything and doctoring up that flourescent plastic cheese slime with better cheese, cus it's salty and yummy and makes a stable base. Love that makers mark bourbon, but it's all poison and I don't kid myself about it or blame others for me having the right to poison myself.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by gopers

Driving is a privilege,not a right, thats why the state governments can require auto insurance in order to drive.

Education isn't considered a priviledge. State governments require education up until the 10th grade.

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by tooweirdtolivetooraretodie

Not that I can't relate to being cynical and wanting to believe these people all have an evil agenda. Thus making it easy for me to rationalize and envision, for a very short time, the torture and dismemberment of the employees of many of these alphabet soup bureaucracies.
Taking the reigns back over from my little pissed off, mohawked, doc martins and misfits shirt wearing inner child. I realize that it's very doubtful that most of this can be chalked up to that kind of forethought and wickedness. Slow mindedness, small minds, greed and laziness amongst the government employees in question, is far more realistic. It exists in every other agency, why not the FDA? It would seem people take those jobs for an easy and non intellectually challenging ride to a pension. It's also not like there is not ample information about proper nutrition out there for those who grasp it's significance. There's also common sense, the further you get from your foods source, the less healthy it is. There's no shortage of better options here these days as people are waking up to the importance of local and sustainable food production vs corporate food production and supply. Albeit, very, very slowly.
I f*in' love funions and mcdonalds ..everything and doctoring up that flourescent plastic cheese slime with better cheese, cus it's salty and yummy and makes a stable base. Love that makers mark bourbon, but it's all poison and I don't kid myself about it or blame others for me having the right to poison myself.

LOL What is worse, declaring the FDA is evil, or that they are out for easy money? The truth is neither of you should make such gross statements, the FDA is not something you can just pidgeonhole like that. They do food and drugs, and they are scientists. It's ironic that the same folks who scream that the government has become too large and powerfull are the same ones to jump on their shit when tainted spinach hits the shelfs. The truth is that corporations would run rampant over our rights if we disbanded entities like the FDA, people would literally die.

[tooweirdtolivetooraretodie]

Originally Posted by juangoodman

VDC.....I guess you do not understand the underlying problem or I have not satisfactorily explained what it is that we are losing. I have heard that argument several times from the Blue propaganda machine, except I have a mind that can think for itself. As I have already stated we are losing, and what we are losing is not so much dollars but sense and freedom of choice. It's what our wars were fought for. It's what many men have died are dying for. FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!! I can choose not to pay for auto insurance and I'm not sure but I believe there are states where it is not required. I can also opt to not drive. I could make use of public transportation as many others do. It would be a less efficient means of time management but still MY CHOICE. I could carpool with a friend. MY CHOICE. I could ride a bicycle. MY CHOICE. I have presented several options that I have to avoid paying for government mandated auto insurance. If I use any of these options, I cannot be fined or have any punitive measures assessed against me. I have NO CHOICE with this health bill. I MUST PAY FOR AND HAVE Health Insurance now as a citizen of this country or government. I am losing my freedom of choice.

Freedom and Freedom of choice are not the same thing.
Bad choices, choices that impact the freedoms and pursuit of happiness for others, should and will likely result in the loss of ability to make any choices.