[budluver]

Wierd Shit is going on in my mind.

I have smoked off and on for 35 years. Have been in and out of program since 1990.

I left program about 18 months ago, because I needed something to take the edge off of the bullshit at work. I mean a lot of bullshit everyday all-day. MMJ has been the only thing that worked since I quit taking valium 4 1/2 years ago....I have not had a drink for almost 5 years. And my doctors had me try several anti-depressants, etc. I don't like pharmacutical drugs, although I know someday I might have to take one out of necessity.

So here is my dilema. My job situation changed drastically about 1 month ago. I have been 100% sober 12 out of the last 15 days. Why? I have not had the urge to want to smoke mmj. However, I would like to smoke it to help me sleep. I have only had 1 good 6-hours-straight of sleep in last 15 days.

I would like to go back to home group of AA who I met about 5 1/2 years ago. However they only want me back if I go 100% sober.

Anybody who has been around AA, knows that there are a few people who do need to take prescribed medicine. It seems some of them are open about it and some of them are not open about it.

My question is "If I just smoke mmj to help me sleep, and maybe once in a while I smoke during the day, what is the difference between me and those people....or better yet, I know one lady who uses Ambien to sleep and she goes to her AA meetings and has 10 years of sobriety...I know another guy who take 2 presciptions for anxiety and panic attics. He has like 20 years. But he had got to take his medication or he cannot breathe.

So what if I got a script from my doctor for Ambien and did not abuse it. What would be the difference between having a prescription for Ambien or having a prescription for MMJ(which I do have now), if I did not abuse either....and I do know when I am abusing MMJ?

I would appreciate any objective feedback. I would like to continue to smoke marijuana to help me sleep. The og2 and blackberry put me out in 10 minute

To add to the drama, the company I work for will either be purchased soon by new owners or go into liquidation, so I am even thinking about renewal my mmj script this coming week, and ask the same doctor to write me a script for marinol(in case I have to pea for the new boss....I went to my regular family doctor on Friday and he would not write me a script for marinol...I guess because I do not have aids or am going thru chemo), which would cover my but incase of a piss test.

Bud

[Frankie]

Sounds like maybe you just need to get over the hump of having these new owners and posibly undergoing drug testing.

Since you've been mmj free for 12 of 15 days, why not just continuedown that road until the work sitch shakes out? AMbien is good short-term fix, but also consider natural Melatonin.

Ambien has its drawbacks...somnambulant walking and eating, one lady recently got in an accident at 3am as she was out driving on Ambien and didn't even know it. There are several others out there with lower side effect profiles you might try.

AA meetings and their denizens are another issue. CAn be a very strange group dynamic with a lot of hypocrisy tinged with religion. But what do you expect? These are people with marginal personalities to begin with! I also don't believe in the AA disease model which dates from the 50's...addiction is behavioral and environmental.

[Smilodon]

It has been known and researched for 10 years from Texas to the Haight/Ashbury Clinic that alcoholics process etoh differently than people who are not. It is a matter of brain chemistry and that is the basis for the disease concept attached to alcoholism. Dr. David E. Smith followed up that research with the discovery that cocaine also changed permanently the way that neurotransmitters operated in the brain. Bottom line is that alcohol is clearly a disease with a physical etiology.

I totally agree with Frankie that Ambien is a risky alternative to mmj. In fact it is one of the reasons I began mmj at this stage in my life. Like you my MD tried numerous anti-depressants and Ambien. I was also talking and doing other things in my sleep and was uncomfortable with the risk.

Given that latest ruling on mmj in the workplace, I can see why you are scrambling. I hope this situation resolves itself for you quickly as I see you already know what helps you. "The og2 and blackberry put me out in 10 minute"

[djicon]

I suffer from anxiety and have been on a few different meds for it. I believe that most of these meds have long term side effects that have yet to be discovered. I was put on Paxil for anxiety and took that for about 3-4 years, I did not like the side effects and overall the way it made me feel(did you know that there is a 0-5% suicide rate with paxil?). I told my doctor I did not want a med that I had to take every day so he put me on xanax. I just started using mm as an alternative about 6 months ago; I no longer take the other (Chemical shit) meds and overall feel much better. I personally believe all these hardcore drugs that a regular doc is so eager to prescribe are extremely toxic to our bodies. If you can avoid taking ambien or any other pharmaceutical and continue with your mm I think you will be better off but that is just my 2 cents. I still have not been able to get rid of one of the side effects that paxil brought on. Nothing serious but still an undesirable side effect.

Originally Posted by Smilodon

It has been known and researched for 10 years from Texas to the Haight/Ashbury Clinic that alcoholics process etoh differently than people who are not. It is a matter of brain chemistry and that is the basis for the disease concept attached to alcoholism.

I've heard the same thing that people with the disease "alcoholism", their body process alcohol in a similar way to heroine.

I mean, there was a doctor working on cadavers (dead bodies) and he found the same effects of heroine in these homeless men's dead bodies and he wondered how the homeless were able to afford a pricey drug. He found out they were alcoholics and their bodies were processes the alcohol like heroine.

I understand this because my dad (is/was) an alcoholic and I've dated several recovering alcoholics. I don't drink much alcohol myself.

I agree with everyone else AMBIEN (which roughly means 'good morning') is MuyMalo (very bad).

If you're looking for a nonbiased opinion about this matter, I don't think a MMJ board is the place to look. We all understand or believe the medical benefits of MMJ, whereas the AA people may not.

I say makes some MMJ milk/tea before bed and you'll sleep fine (ask Big Papa)

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

I was on Ambien for many years. (I have been an insomniac all my life, and I do mean since I was a little kid.) It started as an occasional thing until I moved to California and living with paper-thin walls and noisy neighbors left me on 5mg a night every night. Later that got bumped up to 10mg.

For years it was an absolute godsend. It put me to sleep quickly, kept me asleep, and left me with no hangover. Although I know it's a short-term fix, my doctors through the years have agreed that if it works and I had no side effects, I should just stay on it.

As to the side effects. Yes, they definitely caused me some memory loss, as in I couldn't necessarily remember the next day what I did or conversations I held when I was on it. My friends and family referred to me as "Ambienized" when this happened. However, I never had any incidents of sleep-driving, -eating, or anything else dangerous. Literally the only Ambien-related danger I had in about ten years of use was the equivalent of drunk dialing, i.e. I'd send out emails to friends that were almost incoherent. However I had no, repeat no, problems functioning during the day.

I am no longer on Ambien as once I was diagnosed with CFS (my health kind of collapsed five years ago, including an insane worsening of insomnia and I now struggle with several chronic illnesses), my doctor retailored my sleep med regime. I sort of wish he hadn't as the crap I'm on now upsets my stomach hugely and also causes a hangover. (MMJ does absolutely nothing for my insomnia.) However I do recognize that Ambien is meant to be a short-term thing, so it is good to be off it.

My point in all this is that we are all different and there is no one drug that is evil or not evil since we all react differently to it. Ambien can be a very, very useful drug when used correctly and under the supervision of a good doctor, not just one of the millions who hand it out like candy and don't care if patients eat it like candy either.

[Zabiela]

Originally Posted by darkintheglow

I was on Ambien for many years. (I have been an insomniac all my life, and I do mean since I was a little kid.) It started as an occasional thing until I moved to California and living with paper-thin walls and noisy neighbors left me on 5mg a night every night. Later that got bumped up to 10mg.

Reading that is terrifying. It reminds me of having watched my highschool friend's adderall rx amount just go up and up and up.

Originally Posted by Zabiela

Reading that is terrifying. It reminds me of having watched my highschool friend's adderall rx amount just go up and up and up.

I'm not sure how that's "terrifying" or the same thing. In ten years the dose went from 5mg to 10mg and stayed there. The single time I took more than 10mg I had a hangover so I never took more than that again.

At a certain point in my life, due to undiagnosed health issues, I had to be on Seroquel, usually prescribed for schizophrenia, just to get a few hours of sleep. I have a list a mile long of other things I tried, from melatonin to hypnosis to non-medical marijuana to a pharmacy full of meds. Ambien for me was comparatively mild. Again, everyone is different.

By the way, I should mention, good sleep health habits are vital and the first thing that should change if necessary, before resorting to any meds. If you must drink caffeine, only before noon, and no sugar past early evening at the latest. Your bedroom should be dark and quiet: use earplugs or white noise machines (including fans, humidifiers, etc.) to make a restful sleep environment. No TV, videogames, or computer right before bed, and no food three hours before bed. Maintain a consistent schedule of waking and sleeping. All that good stuff.

[Zabiela]

Originally Posted by darkintheglow

I'm not sure how that's "terrifying" or the same thing. In ten years the dose went from 5mg to 10mg and stayed there. The single time I took more than 10mg I had a hangover so I never took more than that again.

I guess over ten years is not that bad/dramatic. I saw my friends amphetamine dose go up 15mg/year approximately. Its not so much the drug or how much they take, but the fact that I could see their dependence increasing steadily. Probably that and the 7 pm "my meds are wearing off" moodswings.
Thx for the sleep tips, i'm going to try some of them. The no computer before betime is hard with the WT chat though :smile2:

Originally Posted by Zabiela

The no computer before betime is hard with the WT chat though :smile2:

Yeah, I break a few of those rules myself but if you find chatting makes you sleepy then that's all good!

[budluver]

Thank you everybody for all of the input. Ambien is definitely OUT!

Yeah...And the one who commented about Seroquil...thank you for your input on that. This one psychiatrist I saw maybe 3 years ago gave me a script for that(because I had developed a major paranoia that this 1 person I knew was stalking me)...I told my friend about it, and he got out his script directory, and after he told me of the side effects, which could include muscle pain, even after you stop taking it, had me throw out the shit after taking it for just 2 days. (And if Seroquil, or anyother script drug is helping you, I do not want to bash you or the drug. My job is to trust in god, keep my side of the street clean, and help others). And you are all helping me with this decision. You are all my higher power at the moment.

You are all helping me with your input.

My blood type is O. O's need approximately 45 minutes of vigorous exercise daily, or they don't sleep...generally...according to Dr. D'Amato.

So I walk 45-60 minutes daily...haven't had any caffeine for say 1 month. I even gave up green-tea. And I avoid all sugars as best I can. Like one of you said, maybe I should just stay sober until we see what develops.

In the meantime, my mmj script is up in March...So what I am thinking about doing is getting my mmj script renewed maybe in the next 2 weeks by a different doctor and at the same time asking him if he would give me a script for marinol....this might save my ass incase I have to take the piss test.

I would appreciate any all input on Marinol. If you feel funning posting pubicly...ha! ha!, send me a pm. Are there any bad side-effects from Marinol?

Yes, I have to get some Melatonin. I think I have a good one book-marked!
And I can also eat a little turkey on nights that I don't take the melatonin...or maybe take them both...

Bottomline folks, I have had 2 tremendous days here in L.A. Both Saturday and Sunday have been fantastic. I have ran errands that I have put off for over a year. And I went to an AA meeting tues, thurs, and today.

I have over $200 in mmj at my apartment(with paper-thin walls, as one of you said...shit, I wish I owned a house). I cannot believe I have not only cutback on mmj, I don't have that urge!

A month ago I was planning on seeing the U2 movie ripped at Univeral Imax! Looks like I will be going sober real soon! Damn!!!!! Damn!!!!

Thanks again for your input!

Bud

[Zabiela]

Originally Posted by budluver

If you feel funning posting pubicly...ha! ha!, send me a pm.

With that said they should expand the anonymous posting function to the PiR section.
Glad you're doing better BL.

Originally Posted by darkintheglow

(MMJ does absolutely nothing for my insomnia.)

wait, You're telling if you consume an indica based edible (drinkable) about 45 minutes before you want to go to bed that you don't fall asleep and stay asleep? Have you tried the tea?

Originally Posted by wald0

Yeah, it sounds like they need to do a sleep study. Could be anything from obstructive sleep apnea to clogged nasal passages to something in their diet or environment that's awakening them.

I have had a sleep study done. There is absolutely nothing somatic wrong with me, no restless legs, apnea, nasal issues, etc. I actually have little problem falling asleep even without any meds at all. My problem is staying asleep (and now, with the CFS, not getting refreshing sleep). This is because I don't get enough stage 3 sleep and hardly any stage 4 sleep.

And yes, a good edible will put me to sleep. So will a small bowl of a nice indica, or a bowl of pasta, or milk. The problem with all of these is they don't keep me there. I wake up after three hours (one sleep cycle) like clockwork. And melatonin gives me insane headaches, even when I tried introducing it gradually.

I know all this stuff helps people enormously but having been an insomniac all my life and now dealing with chronic illnesses whose hallmarks are insomnia has driven me into the arms of Big Pharma. So, MMJ helps for many of my other symptoms that seriously affect my QOL and I don't have to take Vicodin etc. for those anymore -- good enough for me.

[budluver]

Darkinglow:
Sorry to hear you have to deal with CFS. I am sure you drink a lot of water. The last 5 days my energy level has fluckuated between low and medium. I try to drink a lot of water...I can only assume I am going thru detox and just have to ride it out!

Waldo:
You're right. When I go into to see my family doctor for the physical he suggested I do soon, I am also going to ask for the sleep study. I don't want to have to take a "pharma suedo" for sleep.

Anybody in Recovery:
Just wondering, are there any members here of AA,CA,Na, and even MA, who use mmj minimally, and continue to go to meetings adding 1 day at a time to their sobriety? If yes, does your sponsor know you use mmj for strickly medical purposes and not to "GET HIGH or WASTED or WRECKED", as I used to do? Cause I would love to continue to go to AA meetings a few times a week(and add to my sobriety, even if I use mmj for insomnia and anxiety...I have always had that anxiety bs in me) and make new friends there. However, if I go back to my home group(everybody there knows marijuana was my DOC), they will be in my face about whether I am 100% sober from marijuana.

Thanks for more input!

Bud

Originally Posted by darkintheglow

And yes, a good edible will put me to sleep. So will a small bowl of a nice indica, or a bowl of pasta, or milk. The problem with all of these is they don't keep me there. I wake up after three hours (one sleep cycle) like clockwork. And melatonin gives me insane headaches, even when I tried introducing it gradually.

I feel really sorry for you that you have such sleep problems. I get fairly good sleep consider others. I usually get 8 hours (I need it or I can't function). I'm not sure what your other chronic illness is but I feel for you. I will say a little pray for you. I'm not that religious but it sounds like you need divine intervention.

Have you tried the tea? Yes or No?

Soak a gram or so indica with a tea steeper (or well sealed coffee filter) in milk (or soy milk or any fatty milk substitute of your choice) for 45 minutes over low heat and consume 45 minutes before you want to sleep. The effects work from 4-6 hours.

I realize you've smoked mmj before bed but smoking only last 2-3 hours (that may be why you wake up) consuming mmj orally via a fat soluble method last much longer.

My question is specific....HAVE YOU TRIED THE TEA? (or medicated milk)

Sleep well my friend,
DQ

[cannadyke]

Originally Posted by darkintheglow

I actually have little problem falling asleep even without any meds at all. My problem is staying asleep (and now, with the CFS, not getting refreshing sleep). This is because I don't get enough stage 3 sleep and hardly any stage 4 sleep.

And yes, a good edible will put me to sleep. So will a small bowl of a nice indica, or a bowl of pasta, or milk. The problem with all of these is they don't keep me there. I wake up after three hours (one sleep cycle) like clockwork.

this is my sleeping problem as well. i have absolutly NO problem initially falling asleep, but i can't stay asleep.

i have also tried ambien and a handful of other sleeping pills. they are all horrible and made me feel like crap the next day. they don't actually allow you to sleep (quality REM sleep), but rather they make your body unconcious---which is not as good. plus, it's not like i can take a sleeping pill @ 2am, when i wake up and can't get back to sleep. my current MD won't even perscribe them for me due to the side effects and high addiction rate. she actually approves of my mmj use for sleep (she is not my mmj doc, but my gen phys. @ cedars).

i've found that heavy indicas (and sometimes concentrates) followed up w/ a potent edible will usually do the trick. i will still wake up in the middle of the night, but i'm usually still feeling the effects of the edible and can drift back to sleep. if i can't fall back asleep (such as last night) i will take a couple more hits of indica---and that usually will help. (i need to get 8hrs of sleep as well in order to fully function the next day)

i agree w/ all the other advise as well: exercise, cutting back on sugar/caffiene/alcohol, eating healthy........i also find that "relaxing" things like a bath work well, sleep in a dark/quiet room w/ no distractions.

Originally Posted by cannadyke

this is my sleeping problem as well. i have absolutly NO problem initially falling asleep, but i can't stay asleep.

Have you tried cognitive therapy for insomnia?

[cannadyke]

Originally Posted by dismalqueen

Have you tried cognitive therapy for insomnia?

nope. i don't really have any sort of behavioral or psychological issues that i've needed to use therapy for.

my doctor thinks its a physical response to my enviornment. in my opinion, it was a physical/psychological response to my ex's nocturnal behavior (her anxiety issues, mental health problems and sleeping disorder) that caused the whole thing. thankfully, i'm single now and am working on these residual issues. mmj has been VERY helpful in getting me back on track. i'm sleeping more regularly and i feel much healthier. i'm also learning tai chi which has been great for relaxation and stress/pain relief.

[BrattonBasher]

Ambien is a very sucessful medicine, both financially and clinically. Yes, there have been documented side effects, some of them quite dangerous. It has helped so many people sleep, including myself occasionaly, and has only mild effects the next day for the vast majority.

I can not comment on AA issues.

[zbestwun2001]

Originally Posted by budluver

Wierd Shit is going on in my mind.

I have smoked off and on for 35 years. Have been in and out of program since 1990.

I left program about 18 months ago, because I needed something to take the edge off of the bullshit at work. I mean a lot of bullshit everyday all-day. MMJ has been the only thing that worked since I quit taking valium 4 1/2 years ago....I have not had a drink for almost 5 years. And my doctors had me try several anti-depressants, etc. I don't like pharmacutical drugs, although I know someday I might have to take one out of necessity.

So here is my dilema. My job situation changed drastically about 1 month ago. I have been 100% sober 12 out of the last 15 days. Why? I have not had the urge to want to smoke mmj. However, I would like to smoke it to help me sleep. I have only had 1 good 6-hours-straight of sleep in last 15 days.

I would like to go back to home group of AA who I met about 5 1/2 years ago. However they only want me back if I go 100% sober.

Anybody who has been around AA, knows that there are a few people who do need to take prescribed medicine. It seems some of them are open about it and some of them are not open about it.

My question is "If I just smoke mmj to help me sleep, and maybe once in a while I smoke during the day, what is the difference between me and those people....or better yet, I know one lady who uses Ambien to sleep and she goes to her AA meetings and has 10 years of sobriety...I know another guy who take 2 presciptions for anxiety and panic attics. He has like 20 years. But he had got to take his medication or he cannot breathe.

So what if I got a script from my doctor for Ambien and did not abuse it. What would be the difference between having a prescription for Ambien or having a prescription for MMJ(which I do have now), if I did not abuse either....and I do know when I am abusing MMJ?

I would appreciate any objective feedback. I would like to continue to smoke marijuana to help me sleep. The og2 and blackberry put me out in 10 minute

To add to the drama, the company I work for will either be purchased soon by new owners or go into liquidation, so I am even thinking about renewal my mmj script this coming week, and ask the same doctor to write me a script for marinol(in case I have to pea for the new boss....I went to my regular family doctor on Friday and he would not write me a script for marinol...I guess because I do not have aids or am going thru chemo), which would cover my but incase of a piss test.

Bud

I have said this before and I will say it again. AA, at least the people I have met are fine with taking needed meds as prescribed. NA will give you shit!

If people in your home group have a problem with that, then find a sponsor that doesn't in that group.
No one else need know, except you and your sponsor that you are taking your prescription meds as prescribe.

Although sobriety will help clear up a lot of your life's problems, we are only human, and may need some help from the RX companies sometimes.

Much love,
zb1

Originally Posted by dismalqueen

I'm not that religious but it sounds like you need divine intervention.

Well I want to say thank you for your concern! I have learned to live with it and the way things are now mostly it doesn't affect me too much. You're very kind though.

Sorry I wasn't specific; I have tried the tea -- as soon as I saw that recipe I had to try it! -- but I wake up after three hours.

MMJ just doesn't fix every symptom for everyone, I guess.



EDIT: I meant to mention that also due to my financial situation, I really have to limit my MMJ spending and mete it out for my pain and discomfort, or for motivation if I have a nice racy sativa. So even if that tea did work there is no way I could afford it every night. My pills are generic and with insurance they cost me almost nothing. Sad but true.

[budluver]

I have not tried the tea as of yet. When I decide to medicate on mmj, I will try the tea, a sugar-free,caffeine-free edible, and some og2 and blackberry.
This should give me 5 1/2-6 hours of straight sleep. I had 5 1/2 hours straight last week sober...it was wonderful. I practically died at 5:30pm and woke up at midnight. I felt FANTASTIC. I did not go back to bed that night and had good energy until 9pm the next night. Then I died again...practically.

No, I have not tried the cognative therapy for insomnia. Please send me a link, or...I will google it.

Right now I need to crash. I walked for 45 minutes at the mall after work, and am dead tired.

I don't know when I will break out my vaporizer, however I feel that as long as I don't abuse mmj, I still have my sobriety! In the meantime, it won't heart for me to stay sober for awhile. There are tremendous changes happening at work, I am the one who has to co-ordinate it all!

On top of that, Boo HOO Whooo, my blood pressure is up. Last week at the doctor's office it was 140/100. Today before I walked it was 129/89. I am very curious what it would be if I had vaped first!

Meanwhile, I am giving my lungs a break.

Thanks,
Bud
P.S. "Trust in God, Keep My side of the Street Clean, and Help Others!"