only in Western medicine could they spend years of work researching and pouring money into a sleep aid device that is too noisy and uncomfortable to sleep with.

no offense, but why are most american dr's so fucking stupid? all the way around. shit, they have lower death rates at the dr's hands in poor hospitals in little pueblos in mexico.

plastic surgery/ implants. shit, thailand puts all those beverley hills fucks to shame.

america is gods only fuck up. really think about it before any of you respond eh?

[Grandpa Dank]

Don't blame God.... God gave humans "free will".........impeachbush.org

[BabyBoomer]

Originally Posted by Oaksterdam News

only in Western medicine could they spend years of work researching and pouring money into a sleep aid device that is too noisy and uncomfortable to sleep with.

no offense, but why are most american dr's so fucking stupid? all the way around. shit, they have lower death rates at the dr's hands in poor hospitals in little pueblos in mexico.

plastic surgery/ implants. shit, thailand puts all those beverley hills fucks to shame.

america is gods only fuck up. really think about it before any of you respond eh?

Where have I heard that before . . . . . RCB??? He had to wear one of those.

BB

.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by MrKindHerb

If your a person in recovery, I do not think using mmj should be a way out. It is still a drug that can be abused. However it is a safer drug than almost anything out there. But my point being is that a recovery program is to help you live your life clean and sober. Most drug users spend all their time, money and energy trying to 'score' the drug. If you substitute your drug of choice with mmj, you aren't really learning anything from the program. (actually you are just making a mockery of it) Having mmj would just give you a crutch in which one is not fully learning what their body and mind is like without any drugs at all (ones views and perceptions of themselves and the world around them change when clear headed). I was in the program a while back and I have learned so much from it. If a person has health problems and needs medication, I strongly urge that a doctor foresees the medication they take and puts them on a strict ration.

In some ways these mmj loopholes are actually hurting some people than helping them. Just my two cents.

Ignorance. Anyone with MMJ has seen a doctor. Also anyone who is serious about their recovery from drug/alcohol dependence will know whether MMJ is relieving symptoms or replacing that 'high'. Also, you say you were in the program. Was MMJ a hindrance to you?

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by MrKindHerb

If your a person in recovery, I do not think using mmj should be a way out. It is still a drug that can be abused. However it is a safer drug than almost anything out there. But my point being is that a recovery program is to help you live your life clean and sober. Most drug users spend all their time, money and energy trying to 'score' the drug. If you substitute your drug of choice with mmj, you aren't really learning anything from the program. (actually you are just making a mockery of it) Having mmj would just give you a crutch in which one is not fully learning what their body and mind is like without any drugs at all (ones views and perceptions of themselves and the world around them change when clear headed). I was in the program a while back and I have learned so much from it. If a person has health problems and needs medication, I strongly urge that a doctor foresees the medication they take and puts them on a strict ration.

In some ways these mmj loopholes are actually hurting some people than helping them. Just my two cents.

I had 18 months clean/sober from everything before becoming an MMj patient.

I agree with you in one of your statements.. that it is necessary for someone to spend some time completely sober, to experience what clear-headedness is supposed to feel like.

I can honestly tell you that MJ has not become a replacement for me. I mean.. honestly.. how could someone replace meth with weed? Their effects are so different..

However, MJ has helped me learn how to cope with life without meth.. And the movement itself has become an outlet for many of my otherwise idle energies which-- having no outlet, might have devolved into the compulsions which fueled my addictive lifestyle previously.

Bottom line.. on Medical Marijuana I am now happier, productive, law-abiding (stateside), healthier, and stronger.. more self-empowered to proactively chart the course of my own life.

[MrKindHerb]

Originally Posted by Steven

Ignorance. Anyone with MMJ has seen a doctor. Also anyone who is serious about their recovery from drug/alcohol dependence will know whether MMJ is relieving symptoms or replacing that 'high'. Also, you say you were in the program. Was MMJ a hindrance to you?

MMJ was NOT a hindrance to me when I was in the NA program. Do you know why?

I was CLEAN and SOBER, free from everything. I took the program to heart. I did all the steps. I volunteered in the community (lunch kitchen for the homeless, old folks homes and a few other organizations that benefited the entire community). I did not use mj or anything, being clear headed is what helped me learn so much from this program.

One of the symptoms of being an addict is lying. You will lie to everyone around you (even your loved ones), you will also lie to yourself. "One little hit wont hurt." "I will just do it on the weekends." etc etc i don't really want to get into it, but my basic point is .. if your serious about recovery you should spend some time being clean and sober and actually give the 12 steps a chance. "It works if you work it"

The only side effect of having an open mind is that you just might learn something.






oh yah Leo to answer your question on how weed can replace meth. Addicts are usually addicted to the sensation of the dopamine released into their body. Any drug (even various activities) that makes you feel good releases dopamine. Essentially an addict can easily find a replacement for their drug of choice (the only thing different is the side effects of each drug).

hope this helps.

[BabyBoomer]

What works for you, is not the ONLY way for others.

A member of my family overcame the addiction of cocaine by using marijuana. She needed that extra help to get through some really difficult times. She is now off of everything and has been clean for many years.

So if being totally clean works for you, do not insult others that have their recovery experience to be different than yours.

What is right for you, is just that, for you.

That's my opinion that fits for ME.

.

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by MrKindHerb

MMJ was NOT a hindrance to me when I was in the NA program. Do you know why?

I was CLEAN and SOBER, free from everything. I took the program to heart. I did all the steps. I volunteered in the community (lunch kitchen for the homeless, old folks homes and a few other organizations that benefited the entire community). I did not use mj or anything, being clear headed is what helped me learn so much from this program.

One of the symptoms of being an addict is lying. You will lie to everyone around you (even your loved ones), you will also lie to yourself. "One little hit wont hurt." "I will just do it on the weekends." etc etc i don't really want to get into it, but my basic point is .. if your serious about recovery you should spend some time being clean and sober and actually give the 12 steps a chance. "It works if you work it"

The only side effect of having an open mind is that you just might learn something.






oh yah Leo to answer your question on how weed can replace meth. Addicts are usually addicted to the sensation of the dopamine released into their body. Any drug (even various activities) that makes you feel good releases dopamine. Essentially an addict can easily find a replacement for their drug of choice (the only thing different is the side effects of each drug).

hope this helps.

It wasn't really a question.. and if you're going to answer it by saying that anything that feels good can potentially become a replacement for a harmful self-destructive drug obsession.. and furthermore that anything replacing the drug of choice in that manner is equally bad... then you either wield far too broad of a definition for the word "addiction" or you have not been as low as I have...

what I have now is the polar opposite of what I had then.. and complete sobriety and 18 months of heavy 12-step program involvement was a weigh station between the fucked life I led and the trail I'm blazing now.

I have a question for you, Mr. Kind Herb? What happened? I mean, if you were CLEAN and SOBER and doing the deal as well as you claim.. and worked for you as much as you endorse it to have done.. then what are you doing here? Why are you now an MMj patient, advocating the way you were while now decrying the way you are?

Or are you back on other drugs too?? If you're not.. if you're just using your medicine as I am, it would seem to be that regardless of what you say, you're making my case.. If this isn't your situation and you're having other drug or alcohol troubles again, I encourage you to stick around with us.. To come to our meetings.. to try to approach this with an open mind.. Cuz it's apparent you must not be ready to rejoin NA.

While this forum and the meetings we'll be having are targeted towards people like us.. those that were part of the mainstream Recovery movement but are now disaffected due to MMj (but still want to keep our lives going in the right direction), I think it will also come in handy for those who are still in the grips of their addictions and want to go medical to help them come off.. I don't think there's a better come-down assist substance out there than pot.. for almost any addiction.. ideally, a substantial period of complete CLEAN/SOBER time without pot will be part of any successful recovery effort-- but that's just my opinion.. not something i would try to enforce or even pass judgment on..

Our approach, by necessity, will be individualized.. What works best for one person may not work at all for another.. AA and NA are pretty cut and dry about how things are supposed to go. Some people really benefit from that type of model.. rules.. structure..

Patients live in a gray area. We are a gray-area minded folk.. We will prove in more ways than one, the merits of flexibility..

[MrKindHerb]

Excellent point made. Everyone is different and there are many solutions to a problem. I also agree that mmj is a better choice than almost every drug out there. I just wanted to throw out a suggestion of taking a program seriously if you were assigned to it, do it your way if you have to. In the end either way it doesn't really matter to me. Even if the end result is that you stay away from jails or the legal system, it is a beneficial end result. Doesn't everyone agree?

From the courts point of view: they don't want to see addicts stuck in the legal system, thats why they try to offer solutions like AA and NA to help give some helpful tools in life.. I personally do not use the program (it just makes addicts addicted to the program) but little things did leave an impression on me. Whatever works for you.. different strokes right? :smile2:

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by MrKindHerb

Excellent point made. Everyone is different and there are many solutions to a problem. I also agree that mmj is a better choice than almost every drug out there. I just wanted to throw out a suggestion of taking a program seriously if you were assigned to it, do it your way if you have to. In the end either way it doesn't really matter to me. Even if the end result is that you stay away from jails or the legal system, it is a beneficial end result. Doesn't everyone agree?

From the courts point of view: they don't want to see addicts stuck in the legal system, thats why they try to offer solutions like AA and NA to help give some helpful tools in life.. I personally do not use the program (it just makes addicts addicted to the program) but little things did leave an impression on me. Whatever works for you.. different strokes right? :smile2:

Exactly..

I tip my hat to 12 step groups.. They've helped a lot of people. They've helped me. But they, like religion, are too routine and dogmatic. Maybe I just tell myself that as a clever rationalization for choosing to go my own way. One thing I've learned in this life is to never underestimate my ability to outsmart myself... i used to call it self-sabotage but prefer the new term for its more positive connotation.. ironic since I usually abhor euphemism.

I hope you'll come around and check us out. We need to fill the room with devils advocates. Keep me sober.. keep me sharp..

[hempRules]

Does mmj get you high? Sure it does, but so does vicodin, codine, oxycotin, morphine, and the list goes on. Go to any meeting out in Lake Forrest, Irvine, Newport Beach, or Laguna Beach and you will have no problem in finding some one that is addicted to doctor perscribed manufactured pharmacutical dope. The richer and more affluent the area the greater the number of Republican alcholic losers that want only their version of soceity to exist. What about Rush Limbaugh? I wonder how many pills that fat fuck could cram down his throat chasing the dragon.

Let's put all of this in perspective with a nice little summary. The last two of our presidents are self admitted drug users. One of which that apperently got so loaded he seemed to be a little confused about whether or not he inhaled, but then again he could'nt remember banging some fat broad with a cigar either. Our next boy wonder is such a lying sack of shit that he waits until after the election to write his autobiography where he openly admits to years of past alcohol, marijuana, and a serious cocaine abuse problem. It's okay though because he found God. Our next dip shit in line seems to be Arnold. Hell this guy even made a movie where he openly smokes marijuana, and were just suppose to change our constitution so another extremely wealthy and famous individual can get their way?

Why are the Gates and Warren Buffet giving away their fortanes at a staggering pace? Warren Buffet is doing this in part because our country is on it's way to becoming an aristrocracy controlled by the huge concentrations of wealth by a very limited number of individuals in this great nation. Is America for sale?

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by hempRules

Is America for sale?

Everything is for sale. Money and fame are power. You're for sale, I'm for sale, everyone is for sale. I hate acknowledging this, but it's a fact.

The only people who dispute this claim are those who have nothing to buy or nothing to sell.. or those who are deluding themselves into thinking they can't be bought.

It's not always money that is used for purchasing collateral.. But in one way or another, everything is for sale. That is the driving force behind why humans form society.. why we interact.. you have something i want, i have something you want... maybe it is only validation of my own self worth that I am seeking from you. maybe it is only ego lifting attention that you seek from me... money is nothing more than a representation of value. bartering.. trading.. still involves value assessing and opportunity cost wieghing.. Trade is a form of selling.

Name me something that you don't think is for sale and I will show you how it is. thinking in terms of money value often paints a negative and inaccurate connotation.. there are many ways to look at everything.. everything is for sale.

Even things that are supposedly priceless are anything but.... most priceless things are just really expensive.. things that a person will not sell.. those are things that are for sale with the right price yet to be identified. I guarantee that no matter what a person has, be it material or not, there is something that person wants more and would give up something they have (including merely their time or effort) in order to obtain.. everything is for sale.

Some say money can't buy love.. that's the biggest crock of shit. love is more "for sale" than anything.. everybody wants love and everybody at some deep level has love to give. We use money, power, fame, work, reputation, appearance, charm, affection, love, etc. as various forms of currency to buy the love we seek.. Love in varying degrees of sincerity and profundity is the hottest seller on the market..

Can you tell I'm a capitalist at heart?

[Leosyndicate]

REMINDER: C.P.R. (Cannabis Patients in Recovery)
Recovery Meetings begin this Sunday, 1/28 at 2pm, at CCCN..

All Interested Patients are Welcome to Attend. It doesn't matter if you identify as an addict or anything else. You don't have to identify. If you are interested in the subject and you have a valid rec, please come.

-----------------

Agenda:

2pm - Introductions around the room. Everyone states their name (and WT screen name if they want to) and if they choose to they can briefly identify the issues they are trying to recover from.

210 - I will explain the concept of the group.. why we are meeting.. what influenced the creation of the group.. who it is geared towards.. what we hope to accomplish with these meetings.

215 - I will tell my personal story in addiction recovery and as an MMj patient.. In future meetings, whomever leads will tell their story.

220 - Open the meeting for sharing.. Leader will call on patients to share based on who raises their hand or by choosing randomly if no one volunteers. Each share will be 1-5 minutes, depending on how many people want to speak.

240 - Pass the basket. Donations will be split evenly between CCCN (As a thank you for hosting our meeting) and ASA. If any patient is not a supporter of ASA but still wants to contribute, they can designate a charity of their choice and I'll be happy to direct the money where it needs to go. About donations.. I understand we are all on a budget. Donating is entirely voluntary. Suggested amount is only $1 per person, per meeting. I think a good target is to be able to give ASA and CCCN each at least $1 per person based on average weekly attendance, per month. I will donate regularly because I think it's good karma.. but I'm not requiring others to do the same.. I'd rather have you fill the chair with yourself rather than fill the basket with your dollars. Please.. if you don't want to or can't afford to donate-- do not let that keep you from attending.

250 - Secretary's report. (I'll be the secretary for now, but it may change later). I will give a 2-3 minute update on the status of the group.. donations made or collected or spent (coffee and tea.. snacks.. etc.). I might make some announcements about political events within the movement.. Then I will ask if anyone else has announcements related to upcoming events for Recovery or Medical Marijuana.

255-End - Open forum to talk about whatever.. Co-ops, politics, spirituality, philosophy.. hobbies.. ailments.. strains. medicating.. current events..

--------------


We may or may not stick to this exactly.. play it by ear... as time goes on we may insert specific readings as part of the format.. but unlike AA or NA, we don't have a book.. we don't have 12 steps.. we don't as yet have any slogans. Your suggestions for anything like this, if we even want to go that route, are welcome..

[hempRules]

Originally Posted by MrKindHerb

MMJ was NOT a hindrance to me when I was in the NA program. Do you know why?

I was CLEAN and SOBER, free from everything. I took the program to heart. I did all the steps. I volunteered in the community (lunch kitchen for the homeless, old folks homes and a few other organizations that benefited the entire community). I did not use mj or anything, being clear headed is what helped me learn so much from this program.

One of the symptoms of being an addict is lying. You will lie to everyone around you (even your loved ones), you will also lie to yourself. "One little hit wont hurt." "I will just do it on the weekends." etc etc i don't really want to get into it, but my basic point is .. if your serious about recovery you should spend some time being clean and sober and actually give the 12 steps a chance. "It works if you work it"

The only side effect of having an open mind is that you just might learn something.






oh yah Leo to answer your question on how weed can replace meth. Addicts are usually addicted to the sensation of the dopamine released into their body. Any drug (even various activities) that makes you feel good releases dopamine. Essentially an addict can easily find a replacement for their drug of choice (the only thing different is the side effects of each drug).

hope this helps.

I thought this was a fourm for prop 215 patients only? I don't know if your a patient, but if your not and you are clean then what are you doing? I had years of sobriety too. So what! Time does not equal recovery, and AA and NA were created by attraction not promotion. May I remind you:

10. Narcotics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the N.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalties.

Sit back, relax, and let God take controll. Unless your still praying to a door knob, in which case I wish you the best of luck, and my hats off to you.

Oh by the way: In my case I had to be put on psych meds when I got clean. The therapist said that I had probally been self medicating in the past and didn't realize it. At least I stopped trying to run people off the road. I'll make you a deal. If you truly want to see me 100% clean I have a freind with a cabin in a very remote location where the two of us could work on our steps together alone, for the first 30 days of my recovery. I will quit taking all of my medications, but remember it will just be you and me. Also I have to warn you there is no phone or cell recption.

[hempRules]

Originally Posted by BabyBoomer

What works for you, is not the ONLY way for others.

A member of my family overcame the addiction of cocaine by using marijuana. She needed that extra help to get through some really difficult times. She is now off of everything and has been clean for many years.

So if being totally clean works for you, do not insult others that have their recovery experience to be different than yours.

What is right for you, is just that, for you.

That's my opinion that fits for ME.

.

I saw a recently released study that showed a huge succses rate for cocaine addicts that treated with mmj to battle their dependency on the drug. I believe the study is up on NORML's website somewhere.

[drumin]

As a MM patient and someone who spent time in AA, I have nothing but good to say about AA. It helped me and continues to help many others. AA however is not for everyone. I to suffer from severe chronic pain and Doctors will give me all the narcotics I want but the side effects are brutal. I turned to alcohol for pain relief and was in trouble pretty quick. After getting sober in AA, I now no longer attend meetings on a regular basis and have no trouble not using alcohol. I have also cut my narcotic intake by 2/3. Without MM I don't think I would have been able to do either. My quality of life has improved ten fold. I will however be forever gratefull to AA for probably saving my life.

Most of those I know from AA have a very negative opinion about MM. I really don't care. I do what works best for me.

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by drumin

As a MM patient and someone who spent time in AA, I have nothing but good to say about AA. It helped me and continues to help many others. AA however is not for everyone. I to suffer from severe chronic pain and Doctors will give me all the narcotics I want but the side effects are brutal. I turned to alcohol for pain relief and was in trouble pretty quick. After getting sober in AA, I now no longer attend meetings on a regular basis and have no trouble not using alcohol. I have also cut my narcotic intake by 2/3. Without MM I don't think I would have been able to do either. My quality of life has improved ten fold. I will however be forever gratefull to AA for probably saving my life.

Most of those I know from AA have a very negative opinion about MM. I really don't care. I do what works best for me.

I agree with every word. And my story is practically identical. Good to make your acquaintance..

[hempRules]

I was just wondering if you have been able to come up with a solution regarding legal issues, when it comes to sharing. I would like to attend, but I don't feel comftorable speaking openly if there is a chance that I could get into legal trouble down the road for merely attending a meeting. Unless the meeting is sanctioned by AA, NA, or some religous group I'm afraid that I won't have that same level of protection as granted by the Supreme Court. Also, since I don't know any other patients how do I know there is not a pig in the meeting? Maybe I'm just parinoid, but I'm not willing to take that kind of a risk. If I finally have to break down and go to a meeting, because I finally get to uncomforatable in my own skin, then I guess I could just go to an AA meeting and listen. You know sometimes thats enough. I would prefer to give this new meeting a try if possible.

[QUOTE
Name me something that you don't think is for sale and I will show you how it is. thinking in terms of money value often paints a negative and inaccurate connotation.. there are many ways to look at everything.. everything is for sale.


whats not for sale ? ill tell ya


personal choice to hold what is right in front of selfish means - pure selflessness - (a state ive personally never attained....)

and one hundy priced ounces of pure kush!

thats the thing about being sober , once experianced a taste of what freedom from the bondage of the self feels like, why sell it! what is it any ways, it is essence, presence, it can be fooled it can be lie too, it can be tricked, but and it's not a victim for sure, not this it any ways
any one met the henchmen knows dat, so responsibility and remembering
i am not experiancing the past now, and i am divine now, and forever!
a hora e nunca! now or never! bes be getting on with living instead of thinking i am and thinkin and thinkin and thinkin, stinkin thinkin
faulse emmages appearing real, or fuck every thing and run. no running where
when i am every where, why , face it, the idea of it, see thru
go with in, god aint any where else, some interesting thoughts about stuff in here, tells expressions say much about the state of the thinker
but and thinkin doesn't quantify presence or substance. it's limited
it doesn't lead to freedom, get ya to a point then ya let go of needing to
reflect it and think that means something, not yet any ways
seems like walrus energy to me,,,,,,, focus focus focus
that what i am telling myself right now!
peace and loving kindess
Eagles, sober and clean with mmj since 1985
and wakin up every min more,
;-)-(8)=NMRK!

[Leosyndicate]

Sounds like you got a hold of some nice purps.. this train ride feels familiar..

[zbestwun2001]

Originally Posted by Leosyndicate

CONTINUED...


I don't think that addicts should seek mmj exclusively for recovery right off the bat. They are in danger of trading one addiction for another. It's important to experience absolute clear-headedness and to learn from it. They need to make a break from psychoactive substances first..

This of course would vary depending on the patient. If an addict is truly done partying and is not struggling with ambiguity over that decision, then perhaps introducing mmj early on is fine. From personal experience, I learned a hell of a lot about myself from being completely clean the first 18 months. I'm glad I was not medicated during that time. It was hard, but worth the effort.

detox.. clear the head.. make some life changes.. I think MMj can help with sobriety-- but sobriety should first be obtained and stabilized somewhat. I do not insist that addicts have to quit smoking pot when they quit everything else in order to be successful. Every case is different and I don't pretend to know what I don't know. It's a great medical tool to help a person detox.. but if they are just trying to wind down by getting stoned before heading off to the next bender, then they would be abusing the medical availability of marijuana.

-Leosyn

Having 2 decades of hard drugs sobriety behind me and being a Certified by the state in Addictive Studies and Counselling the point above I believe is extremely important. You need to break that habit completely, whether is was pills, or harder drugs it doesn't matter. You need to stop it all for at least 1 year and as Leosyn suggested 18 months. You would be surprised how long it really takes to clear your head... Now Heroin addiction is a whole different deal expecially if you tried and are on Methadone now. I won't go into that now.

Now I realize people are in pain, and people need their meds. What you need to do is tell you doctor what you are trying to do. If you need your meds and seem to have gotten a bit out of control of them then the doctor will usually still dispense them but just in smaller quanities at a time.

First and foremost in my opioion you need at least 1 year totally clean to know even which way the wind blows... Then get the MM and if you want to try to wean of the pills the doctor should help you do this too.


zb1

[GroMyDro]

so is there a meeting taking place?

[Crohnie]

Originally Posted by GroMyDro

so is there a meeting taking place?

From what I remember, Leosyndicate tried to get this going but never had anybody show up for the meetings with him. It's too bad cuz I think it could be good for people in need of this kind of support.

[GroMyDro]

hrmmm ....

he ought to try again

I have a good friend I just started chilling with again after a year away cause he went to rehab and then NA

he is now a MMJ patient and this would be perfect