[Leosyndicate]

I am curious if anybody else in the MMj community is also involved in 12-step recovery.

Prior to 2005, I was lost in meth addiction and other self-perpetuated life difficulties. I quit meth in Jan '05 and then quit every other substance in March '05 (including alcohol and Marijuana of which I was not at that time a regular or habitual consumer). I took up my old seats in AA meetings from which I had been absent for six years, since my prior attempt at sobriety had ended after 4 years clean time.

I've had struggles with chronic back pain, depression, and insomnia since I was a child. I have impacted verterbrae, pinched nerves and muscle spasms. In July '06, my back took a bad turn and I could barely walk for weeks.

The doctors gave me vicodin like it was candy. It didn't work too well for pain management, and I found myself taking more and more of it each day, just to function at work. By the end of July, I was taking about 3x the recommended dose daily, which is not bad compared to some people-- but I'd had enough and I could see where this was headed.

In early August, I researched MMj as an alternative medicine for pain and sleeplessness. Soon thereafter, I obtained my rec and took an active interest in the politics of the movement and in the forums of WT.

MMj has improved my quality of life... Of course, smoking pot is not openly condoned by Alcoholics Anonymous. I still attend AA meetings regularly where I have announced what I have been doing and have voided my sobriety date of 3/1/05. I have succeeded without any added difficulty to stay away from other drugs, including meth and alcohol. All I've done is smoke pot and I'm also off the vicodin-- a fact I'm proud of.

I have a new sponsor in AA who has told me to stop identifying as a newcomer and to reclaim my old sobriety date, since MJ in my case is a doctor-recommended medication. There are a few individuals other than him who have come to me quietly to voice their support of that idea. And then there is the majority who would vohemently disagree.

Where am I with all of this? I feel like I've de-categorized myself. I don't feel qualified any longer.. no longer as sober as I once was.. to voice any convictions defending this behavior on my own behalf. I know that when I was completely clean, I thought that sobriety and ingesting substances for the purpose of altering the mood/mindset had to be mutually exclusive, by definition. Since then, I've decided that I'd rather do what I can to alleviate or manage my pain, than to strictly forbid myself departures from sobriety as I had defined it.. And so, I empathize with my detractors who think the way I once did and am comforted by my supporters who see the way I do now, or at least they think its best if I don't dwell on the issue. For the time being, I just stay quiet, listen, and try to be of service.

MMj helps me with my pain and has not driven me back to old addictions, self-destructive habits, or criminal behaviours in the 2 months I've been benifiting from it. I intend on continuing its use and defending it publicly and politically any way that I am able to contribute. It's an exciting time for changes occuring in the theatre of politics, religion, and human consciousness and I am grateful to take part.

But AA, 12-steps and recovery, a part of my life that has helped me immensely, to which I wish to remain close.. at times seems distant. It is often a difficult thing to reconcile my enthusiasm and personal dependence for and on my sobriety journey-- with its counterpart for which I am becoming similarly devoted, the Medical Marijuana Movement. On Saturday, I attended a chili-cookoff event to raise funds for bringing Recovery to Hospitals and Institutions. I had helped build one of the "Chili Dispensary Booths"

I left that event around 230pm in Long Beach, to go to the 10-year MMj Expo in Weho. Between the two locations, I wondered if there were any other folks making the same trek. That is, if I might eventually find others who are dually committed to such seeming dichotomies as myself. I see similarities in the two groups.. the sincerest adherents of which are simultaneously dedicated to compassion and healing.

Thus, this post is my needlessly drawn out attempt to break the ice.. To see if, at least among the denizens of Weedtracker, I am not alone. Who would like to engage me on the topic of Addiction Recovery and MMj? All perspectives welcome.

[patientx]

Hello and welcome.

Your post really touched me a lot because I have a hardcore AA type of friend that is very extreme in his beliefs about 12 steps, it's almost as if 12 steps are his new addiction, instead of alcohol.

I have a new sponsor in AA who has told me to stop identifying as a newcomer and to reclaim my old sobriety date, since MJ in my case is a doctor-recommended medication. There are a few individuals other than him who have come to me quietly to voice their support of that idea. And then there is the majority who would vohemently disagree.

First of all, I'm sure there are people, as you say, in AA who understand the medical need for cannabis, and then there are the goosestepping ones who walk in lockstep with whatever the government DEA, or DARE tell people about substances.

Overall, I do not believe any of these AA type 12 step programs have any advantages over other types of recovery programs such as SOS and Smart Recovery, and actually a lot of disadvantages because of the strident attitudes with many people inside.

The whole "rehab" industry, all of the horrid "drug education" your children receive at school, and all of the 'substance abuse education" provided on the DEA website is all predicated upon the 12 step and AA philosophies about substance use. THAT should tell you something.

I'm sure there are good things AA has done for people, but as you say here yourself, that is not the "majority" attitude that would rather have you suffer in pain than have a non addictive medication like cannabis to help you.

http://www.rational.org/

http://www.secularsobriety.org/

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

All of these are non AA non 12 step recovery programs.

[Leosyndicate]

thanks, patientx, for that perspective and those links. I will check them out.

AA has the numbers and the reputation and the track-record to win public favor. Their steps and traditions are rooted in Christianity, even though the fellowship is welcome to all faiths. This is a comfortoable fit for the government to take advantage of..

If the DEA based their propoganda on AA's format or ideology, it was nothing more than good business sense on the part of the DEA. As for AA's perspective on the situation, collectively they do not stand in support of any organization and on an individual basis, you will find no love for the DEA among AA's ranks.

Overall, I do not believe any of these AA type 12 step programs have any advantages over other types of recovery programs such as SOS and Smart Recovery, and actually a lot of disadvantages because of the strident attitudes with many people inside.

Actually, I think for the majority of recovering addicts/alcoholics out there, the 12-step approach has many advantages. I agree with your statement in part, because for a lot of us the total-abstinence via surrender to a higher power format is not sufficient or is too strident. But for the majority, I think it is welcoming, accessible, and easy to convey from one person to the next. As a communal support group, it works wonders. A lot of us stick around forever and AA becomes the core foundation of a positive, productive life. For some of us, including me, it can only serve as a starting point.

First of all, I'm sure there are people, as you say, in AA who understand the medical need for cannabis, and then there are the goosestepping ones who walk in lockstep with whatever the government DEA, or DARE tell people about substances.

Well, there are a lot of hardcore AAers who are adamant about what sober people should or should not consume and the way they should behave. They form these convictions based on how they interpret or were introduced to the program, for each and every one of them are a recovering addict/alcoholic themselves. Their opinions however, are based on their experiences in recovery. Most of them have little to no respect for DARE, DEA, or the war on drugs in general as those organizations have either failed, suppressed, or violated their rights in some way. There is a tie-in with the law in that a lot of people who are sentenced on drug crimes or DUI are sent to 12-step meetings. But rarely if ever is the DEA involved. These are alcoholics after all.. Oftentimes they've been just as marginalized if not more than MMj patients. Hence.. no special love for the government-- at least from what I've seen.

The whole "rehab" industry, all of the horrid "drug education" your children receive at school, and all of the 'substance abuse education" provided on the DEA website is all predicated upon the 12 step and AA philosophies about substance use. THAT should tell you something.

I'm sure there are good things AA has done for people, but as you say here yourself, that is not the "majority" attitude that would rather have you suffer in pain than have a non addictive medication like cannabis to help you.


The rehab industry overlaps a lot with AA, undoubtedly. I am 27 years old. I went through D.A.R.E. I remember Nancy Reagan's Just-Say-No campaign. I've sat through LEO lectures in elementary school classrooms. Most of that stuff was hype and sensationalism..

AA and recovery groups disseminate ideas and literature that have nothing to do with the war on drugs propoganda. The fact is, in the groups we don't talk much about the dangers of drinking and using. We focus on coping with life in recovery. On repairing damages of the past.. On becoming responsible citizens.. On spirituality.. On service towards each other and the community. You would be doing the recovery movement a great disservice to lump them in with oppressive authority factions and propoganda scare machines. They are nothing alike.

I'm sure there are good things AA has done for people, but as you say here yourself, that is not the "majority" attitude that would rather have you suffer in pain than have a non addictive medication like cannabis to help you.

Yes and no. It's not that they would "rather have me suffer" it's that they believe in all sincerity and concern that MJ will lead me back to other drugs and criminal activities. They believe this because, for a lot of people in recovery, it certainly would. Many addicts would be greatly endangering their sobriety by using any drug, including MJ. It's the nature of the condition. I believe I'm an exception. I know there are many others who are as well. I hope I'm not just rationalizing and fooling myself. I guess only time will tell. For now, this feels like the right thing to do and I am definitely benifiting from it.

Thanks for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

[patientx]

haha, well like I said my experience with AA and 12 stepping comes from an uber goosestepping friend in the program who started treating me like he was talking to a 3 year old when he found out that I was on the medical cannabis program.

I'm glad to hear not all AA people are like this, of course, I sort of knew that already, but actually, it just seems to me since 99% of all rehab and everything else having to do with substance education and abuse is predicated on the AA philosophies and the general "rehab medicine" attitude that AA is the ONLY way.

BTW, my friend told me that while he was in the rehab center several people were kicked out because they would not do the step with the higher power or "admit their powerlessness." So... here are some people who genuinely want to quit their addictions, but are denied simply because they will not walk in lockstep with AA.

Not to mention the fact that many judges assign criminals to AA as a mandatory thing, no option for any other type of recovery.

But heck! I'm pleased as punch to meet a 12 stepper like you that seems to have some rational thinking about this stuff! :-)

[patientx]

AA has the numbers and the reputation and the track-record to win public favor.
http://drugwar.com/yabltaalies.shtm

AA’s Effectiveness

AA’s supporters commonly trumpet AA as the best, if not the only, way to deal with alcohol problems. To back their claims, they cite anecdotal evidence and uncontrolled studies; but they ignore the best scientific evidence-the only available controlled studies of AA’s effectiveness, as well as the results of AA’s own triennial surveys of its membership.

There have been only two controlled studies (with no-treatment comparison groups) of AA’s effectiveness. Both of these studies indicated that AA attendance is no better than no treatment at all.

The first of these studies was conducted in San Diego in 1964 and 1965, and its subjects were 301 “chronic drunk offenders.”[2] These individuals were assigned as a condition of probation to attend AA, to treatment at a clinic (type of treatment not specified), or to a no-treatment control group. All of the subjects were followed for at least a year after conviction, and the primary outcome measure was the number of rearrests during the year following conviction. The results were that 69 percent of the group assigned to AA was rearrested within a year; 68 percent of the clinic-treatment group was rearrested; but only 56 percent of the no-treatment control group was rearrested. Based on these results, the authors concluded: “No statistically significant differences between the three groups were discovered in recidivism rate, in number of subsequent rearrests, or in time elapsed prior to rearrest.”[3]

The second controlled study of AA’s effectiveness was carried out in Kentucky in the mid- 1970s, and its subjects were 260 clients “representative of the ‘revolving door’ alcoholic court cases in our cities.”[4] These subjects were divided into five groups: one was assigned to AA; a second was assigned to nonprofessionally-led Rational Behavior Therapy; a third was assigned to professionally-led Rational Behavior Therapy; a fourth was assigned to professionally-led traditional insight (Freudian) therapy; and the fifth group was the no-treatment control group. The individuals in these groups were given an outcome assessment following completion of treatment, and were then reinterviewed 3, 6, 9, and 12 months later.

The results of this study were revealing: AA had by far the highest dropout rate of any of the treatment groups-68 percent. In contrast, the lay RBT group had a 40 percent dropout rate; the professionally-led RBT group had a 42 percent dropout rate; and the professionally-led insight group had a 46 percent dropout rate.

In terms of drinking behavior, 100 percent of the lay RBT group reported decreased drinking at the outcome assessment; 92 percent of the insight group reported decreased drinking; 80 percent of the professionally-led RBT group reported decreased drinking; and 67 percent of the AA attendees reported decreased drinking, whereas only 50 percent of the no-treatment control group reported decreased drinking.

But in regard to bingeing behavior, the group assigned to AA did far worse than any of the other groups, including the no-treatment control group. The study’s authors reported: “The mean number of binges was significantly greater (p = .004) [5] for the AA group (2.37 in the past 3 months) in contrast to both the control (0.56) and lay-RBT group (0.26). In this analysis, AA was [over 4] times [more] likely to binge than the control [group] and nine times more likely than the lay-RBT [group]. The AA average was 2.4 binges in the last 3 months since outcome.”[6]

It seems likely that the reason for this dismal outcome for the AA group was a direct result of AA’s “one drink, one drunk” dogma, which is drummed into the heads of members at virtually every AA meeting. It seems very likely that this belief all too often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it apparently did with the AA attendees in this study.

[Leosyndicate]

haha, well like I said my experience with AA and 12 stepping comes from an uber goosestepping friend in the program who started treating me like he was talking to a 3 year old when he found out that I was on the medical cannabis program.

Yes, I know what you mean about the air of superiority that sober alcoholics have a tendency to adopt once they get sober and indoctrinated into AA. That's another facet of the program that I find alienating. It's unfortunate that it's always the extreme cases who become the most visible. Probably a lot of folks who could have benefited were turned off and away early on by that attitude. I've seen it firsthand.. I understand how people get that way after becoming so rooted in the ideology, but I wish it weren't so.

BTW, my friend told me that while he was in the rehab center several people were kicked out because they would not do the step with the higher power or "admit their powerlessness." So... here are some people who genuinely want to quit their addictions, but are denied simply because they will not walk in lockstep with AA.

Every rehab is different and none of them can speak for AA as a whole. A lot of them have become AA based, some are not. "admitting powerlessness" is a fundamental first step in their approach. I've never heard of anybody getting kicked out for not going along with that. It's more likely that they were ostracized and then left of their own accord. This can feel like getting kicked out, I'm sure. But maybe they actually were booted. That's pretty pathetic if so... These places are run by recovering addicts.. Addicts helping addicts.. It's bound not to function correctly all of the time.

AA states in their 3rd tradition: "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."

I can't speak for any particular rehab or AA group.. but the overall perspective of the meetings I attend and of AA as a whole is just that. If you want to stop drinking (using), you're welcome to participate. No one is kicked out unless they violate others inappropriately..

Not to mention the fact that many judges assign criminals to AA as a mandatory thing, no option for any other type of recovery.

As I said earlier, because of its reputation and Judeo-Christian origins, it's a good fit with government efforts. In sheer numbers worldwide, AA boasts a decent success rate compared with other publicly visible recovery organizations. A lot of judges who send people to AA are in AA themselves. I know a few of them. Until another group emerges with comparable numbers and a supporting fellowship that crosses all socio-economic boundaries, I can see why most judges offer AA as the only alternative to incarceration.

The word "sponsor" has a specific origin. In the early days of AA (1930s and 40s), a person from AA would actually intercede with hospitals and courts on a patient/suspect's behalf. This still goes on today. They would offer to take the person under their wing and start him/her on the path to sobriety/recovery. When new people came to the AA group, it was usually somebody brought by a sponsor. Sponsored out of the hospital or court.. sponsored into AA. Nowadays, the courts just send us here without a sponsor and most people have to find on after they arrive.. So as you can see, judges send people to AA because there's a lengthy precedent.. a long history.. peppered with enough success stories to encourage continued efforts in the same vein..

But heck! I'm pleased as punch to meet a 12 stepper like you that seems to have some rational thinking about this stuff! :-)

Thanks!! I'm very glad to have met someone in the MMj community with some opinions and exposure to AA..

[patientx]

lol! I just messaged my goosestepping aa friend and told him I've just met another aa who is in the medical cannabis program and sober! lol. he's having a fit now. LOL. thanks for your insight and story here! :-)

[Leosyndicate]

It seems likely that the reason for this dismal outcome for the AA group was a direct result of AA’s “one drink, one drunk” dogma, which is drummed into the heads of members at virtually every AA meeting. It seems very likely that this belief all too often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it apparently did with the AA attendees in this study.

I've read that report.. I think it was on a website called Agent Orange or something. The guy who runs that site is continuously trying to bash AA. Google Agent Orange.. some interesting stuff in there.

I don't know about those studies. I'm sure they were conducted with the results that you have shown. AA is a difficult thing to judge scientifically, because there are no constants. I don't think you could run the same study on two different goups of people, at two different times, in two different places, or even just with two different AA meetings, and achieve identical results. People are not machines.

I don't like the "one-drink, one-drunk" dogma either... it does sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy... but it also holds merit. For those whose addictions defy all logic of self-preservation (which is quite a great percentage), one drink is all it takes to get the ball rolling. My problem specifically wasn't drink. If someone dropped an 8-ball in my lap right now, I have no doubt that my life would become complete and dismal ruin in a short period of time.

As far as my comment about the numbers and the reputation... I'm not saying that AA or 12-steps is superior to any other recovery approach. While it is estimated that only 10% of people who come in to AA will achieve life-long sobriety, that 10% has become a large enough group of people worldwide to win public favor for the concept in general. It's a fact and an observation, not my opinion nor a testament to the program's superiority.

The many points you've raised have ran through my mind more than once in the past. I think the 12 steps and fellowship format are one plausible method amongst many. Those within the group who assert that ours is the only way are a discredit to the whole. But I'm glad they have found recovery and can take personal solace in their own convictions.

I'll remain on the fringe, where I've always been. For better or worse.

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by patientx

lol! I just messaged my goosestepping aa friend and told him I've just met another aa who is in the medical cannabis program and sober! lol. he's having a fit now. LOL. thanks for your insight and story here! :-)

Hahaha!! So very glad to oblige. Ask him what meetings he goes to..

[patientx]

Originally Posted by Leosyndicate

Hahaha!! So very glad to oblige. Ask him what meetings he goes to..

He goes to the ones that Kaiser has at their hospital.

Hey, have you and your sponsor ever thought of starting your own AA / NA meetings just for medical cannabis patients who have addiction issues? I'm sure there are more medical cannabis patients who probably feel very marginalized because they might need help with an alcohol or drug addiction but in need of medical cannabis for chronic pain or cancer or MS or Chrones.

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by patientx

He goes to the ones that Kaiser has at their hospital.

Hey, have you and your sponsor ever thought of starting your own AA / NA meetings just for medical cannabis patients who have addiction issues? I'm sure there are more medical cannabis patients who probably feel very marginalized because they might need help with an alcohol or drug addiction but in need of medical cannabis for chronic pain or cancer or MS or Chrones.

Well.. you kinda read my mind.. I've thought of it.. Don't know if it will ever happen. I have a lot of ideas that I never act on.. I'm sure everyone here can relate.

But yeah... starting this thread came out of having that idea which you've described. Cept, initially I was just hoping to meet folks in that situation.. If a meeting ever came out of it, great..

[patientx]

Hmmm... maybe our wonderfully compassionate admin who is a super awesome kinda guy would start a seperate forum for people in recovery for addictions but who are also medical cannabis patients? that would be a great way for you to meet more people that are like you! :-)

omg my friend is off the wall today after I told him about you. lol. I hope you don't mind, but he needed to hear it! really i do tire of his judgemental crap.

oh, and the other thing he does, is he says that he "gets a contact high" when i discuss medical cannabis with him LOL. :rolling: that he can "feel the high when it is talked about" WHAT THE HELL? lol. Is that part of AA?

[angellvr45]

well i am an alcoholic, and do attend meetings occasionally, and stick to my sobriety date of april 28, `1994 13 yrs. and smoke on a daily basis. i do not tell anyone at aa because they are hippocrites, and they don't need to know. I just know that i do NOT drink no matter what!!! go back to your original sobriety date and move forward.

[patientx]

oh boy. another one. my friend is going to have a major crisis today now that i've met two.

hehehe. but more seriously, why don't you guys start a little online meeting for medical cannabis patients? maybe WT would set up a little forum here for people in recovery. Shit, we have the maladies forum, the womens maladies forum, and every other kind of health forum, cooking, etc, why not a recovery forum for people in aa or other recovery programs who are medical cannabis patients too.

[Leosyndicate]

Good to meet you, Angel. I'm glad I'm not the only one. And I have some questions..

1) When did you get on MMj?

2) Do you have a sponsor? Does he/she know?

3) When you first got your rec and started smoking, did it affect your program? Your relationships in the program? Your meeting frequency? Anything else related?

4) Do you plan to smoke forever? Hypothetically, if you woke up tomorrow with no symptoms of your medical condition.. and thereafter all health problems for which MMj brings relief had disappeared, would you quit smoking?

5) Do you know anybody else in the program (besides me) who is using MMj?

6) Have you heard of any meetings sympathetic to that situation?

----------------
Thanks.. My answers:

1) 2 months ago (after 18 months of complete sobriety)

2) Yes. Just got a sponsor who knew about my situation going in.

3) It affects my program. I once believed strongly in total sobriety as being
the best life-choice for me. After MMj, there's some flexibility in that conviction.. This causes me to re-evaluate a lot of program-borne beliefs.. I no longer wield program sayings and concepts like they are gospel (although that really only happened for a short "pink-cloud phase" amount of time). It affects my relationships in the program as well. Face-to-face I often feel more like an outsider than I did before. This is usually due more to my own perceptions than the way I am treated, I think. My sponsor says its a self-worth problem. He could be right. I do go to fewer meetings. I cut back from like 4-5/week to two. The only two I regularly go to are the only two where I have admitted MMj use.

4) If I woke up tomorrow with no back pain and went to bed easily that night without smoking... and could carry that freedom from my symptoms forward from day to day without MMj, I would probably give it up within a few weeks. But it's difficult to say because quite frankly, I get a lot of enjoyment and satisfaction out of smoking.. It's more than just a pain reliever. Difficult thing to determine...

5) No, I don't.

6) No, I haven't.

-----------------

Thanks for coming forward, Angel. These issues have been on my mind a lot and I'm glad there are folks here willing to discuss them..

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by patientx

oh boy. another one. my friend is going to have a major crisis today now that i've met two.

hehehe. but more seriously, why don't you guys start a little online meeting for medical cannabis patients? maybe WT would set up a little forum here for people in recovery. Shit, we have the maladies forum, the womens maladies forum, and every other kind of health forum, cooking, etc, why not a recovery forum for people in aa or other recovery programs who are medical cannabis patients too.

I think it's a great idea. What should I do to get it started or stimulate interest? Thanks.

[angellvr45]

ok, your answers before i forget them
1 38 yrs. -2 for being completely sober, no alcohol, no pot no drugs..
2 no sponsor just friends...had one along time ago..

3 had my rec for 1 yr now and it hasn't affected anyone but the guy on the street i used to get it from...

4 yep

5 yes

6 no

you should try the Hope unlimited meetings they're pretty cool and some are alcoholics also,,and alot of pain patients. i hope to see you there sometime..

[angellvr45]

wait a minute i screwed up on question #4 i find it highly unlikely to ever stop smioking cannabis, it just makes me feel sooo good, and i can cope so much better with everyone else!!

[patientx]

Originally Posted by Leosyndicate

I think it's a great idea. What should I do to get it started or stimulate interest? Thanks.

Come on WT! We have a forum for maladies here, how about one for the people in recovery who are medical cannabis patients?

There. hehe. hopefully he'll add a forum here for you guys, that would be a good start to meet others like yourself I think.

Hmm...that's an interesting idea. I think though, that there are fewer patients in your category than you think. That's not to say that it won't happen. For now, you can use the "what's going on" forum to speak your mind.

As for the topic at hand, I have a few things I would like to say.

First off, I am not now, nor have I ever been in AA. I have had VERY close loved ones in AA, but I personally do not believe in the 12 steps, and I absolutely refuse to accept a couple (the one about a higher power than you is the main one).

I was a heavy social drinker from my late teens until just about the time I turned 30. I never got a DUI, I rarely got so drunk that I passed out, and I didn't drink daily. When I did drink I tended to drink a lot. I'm a big boy, it took a few beers to get a buzz on. I enjoyed it quite frankly. But I was mostly a social drinker. I didn't drink solo very often, and not ONCE did my drinking affect my job performance. IN fact, I had to fire someone work I was a manager of because he got caught drinking on the job. So if I ever did the same, I would have been a complete hypocrite. I will also state this, I do not smoke before or during my current work days. There's a personal responsibility that each person must have, in my opinion.

During my annual physical around my 30th birthday, my Doctor noticed an abnormality in my blood, and coupled with the sensitive nature of my liver as it had been for a little while, he was concerned. After a few months of testing I found out I had a "fatty liver" and that if I continued to drink alcohol I would kill myself.

In the last four years I can count the number of alcoholic beverages I've consumed on one hand. I didn't need AA, I didn't need any therapy, I did start taking anti-depressants for the mood swings and to help with my personality, but for the most part I had no problems dropping the booze.

I do not believe that AA is for everyone. If it helps you then great, but DO NOT think that what works for you works for me or for anyone else. That's the problem that I have with AA. That and the complete and utter rigidity of it's rules.

I prefer a more holisitic approach that focuses on the entire being, body, mind and spirit personally. I did a LOT of soul searching on who I was and what it was I wanted to accomplish. I knew that alcohol was poisoning my body and I had tangible proof. It's hard to explain that to people, and really it's not my place to do so. What you do with your body is your own business.

That said, I no longer frequent bars, and in fact I go out of my way to avoid them and drunk people. I don't mind drinking around me, but I'm not going to willingly put myself in that situation. And there's still a lingering yearning to drink, but I know I can't, so I don't.

[endlesssky]

how's it going, i've been in recovery on and off sence 89. in 91 i was also diagnosed as bipolar and after i was stablized i put 6 years together going to AA and NA i used to be an NA nazi, u know NA or noway. well i also got hep c. and we are talking 2006 now, and i have been on mmj for over a year and i'm terminal. i don't go to AA or NA anymore. i just can;t find a meeting that i would share openly in. and i'm not here to impress anyone . so i find if i keep myside of the street clean i have nothing to fear from anyone in AA or NA i just don't think it's nessisary to put my self thought every person has his oun program. i am very open and honest with my thearpist she is also a drug and alchol therapist and has 25 or so years and i figure as long as i'm makeing good discetions about the mmj and not letting get out of control, because it can and real quick to.i can't use or i'll die . i could'nt drink a beer if it was the last thing in the world to drink i'd get sick. so but i know i have to keep it out in the poen by that i mean i always bring it up and talk about how much how it;s helping and how much i'm spending. i do that because i don;t trust myself and i should'nt not with something i could trun into a way of not coping and i don;t want that!. only positve stuff in my life thank you. and if those so called friends from AA cared they would have noticed i haven't been around for years. you know what i thought i had close friends in AA and NA but when i got sick, i mean real sick where shows , they all left i haven;t heard from not one person. and i ahd been thier for years. i found out who my real freinds were. and you guys on weed tracker are the best support iv'e ever had anyway i don;t go to meeting anymore. i just stay right with my highpower of my understanding. and they don;t kick you out for not doing a thrid step maybe a fourth step haha.in side joke for AAers it's suppost to be princpals before personalitys, but alcholic's and addicts are the worst babys in the world , we take every thing personal i mean everyfuking thing. so when you put a bunch of whineing little babys in a room they will fight and someone will get their babyies,. feeling hurt. i don;t mean to be harsh but i take this very serious. i stay sober and clean [ and that's my opinon as i use mmj for medication and it help's in all kinds of ways that are benafical to not only my pyhiscal but my mental health as well ]. so if i want a meeting i'll go out of town. i'm there for the message anyway not the messenger!. i find it's really all the same kind of peaple in all walks of life not just in AA as group. as far as rehab and all that you can adapt the 12steps program to anything in life and if you put into it what you give is what you'll get in the long run anyway. as far as [ one is to many and a thousand never enough] that's true of any addict depending on the drug of choice and alcohol is a drug. it took me along time before i would let myself use mmj. i took it before my group that iwas in it was for drug addicttion .
, because of my illness they voted yes for me and my theapist new i needed it and was for it after a while. anyway i'm kinda sick so i'll see ya i hope you don;t feel so alone and hang in there man it's all good!! endlesssky

[patientx]

Leo and angel are the first patients I have met that are AA, and I really admire their courage so much. I can see how they are marginalized in AA or AA like groups, it must really suck.

Sky, my friend is a total AA nazi like you were talking about. lol. He spoke to me like I was a 3 year old child when I told him I was on the medical cannabis program, I wanted to strangle him. I really got his goat good tho' with Leo around yesterday.

I loved the way Leo explained AA here and what it means to him. It certainly gives me less of a negative perspective on it that I got from my friend.

A side note here: If you guys wanted to start an online AA or recovery in general type of meeting for people who are medical cannabis patients, you can get a free groups over at google groups or yahoo groups, or both. It's similar to posting on a message board, fill out a little form, submit it and 'viola! you have your own group others can join. Let me know if you need an technical assistance just PM me.

http://groups.google.com and/or http://groups.yahoo.com

these are both very popular places to set up online AA / recovery "meetings" or listservs.

[savage]

i think the recovery forum is a great idea, it totally moves the mmj movement forward. there are a lot of supportive people on here and do their best to help you out. we fellow WT members need to shine more light on this important matter that has been put on the back burner IMO.

[Leosyndicate]

Originally Posted by angellvr45

ok, your answers before i forget them
1 38 yrs. -2 for being completely sober, no alcohol, no pot no drugs..
2 no sponsor just friends...had one along time ago..

3 had my rec for 1 yr now and it hasn't affected anyone but the guy on the street i used to get it from...

4 yep

5 yes

6 no

you should try the Hope unlimited meetings they're pretty cool and some are alcoholics also,,and alot of pain patients. i hope to see you there sometime..

Hope Unlimited? I'm interested. day/time/location? What is it, exactly?

[Leosyndicate]

I'm glad this forum is generating interest. I like the idea of forming a group for MMj patients in AA and other 12-step groups. Getting on a listserv is a good suggestion from Patientx.. I may take you up on the offer for technical assistance.

I would like to form a group here and tie it to listserv email distribution for those who would like to participate that way. Something along the lines of how Dabronx disseminates news on WT and the ASA listservs simultaneously.. My primary interest would be the group within WT because I think that this board is most visible to the intended demographic (as opposed to a google or yahoo group). I'm looking for 12-steppers within the MMj community.. moreso than I am seeking people using MMj within AA.. I hope that makes sense. I'm more interested in supporting those who fit the dual-categorization than in defending MMj to the 12-step community. I understand why many recovering addicts/alcoholics might be opposed to marijuana use and I don't begrudge them for that sentiment nor am I overly concerned with broadening their perspectives. Many addicts should not smoke pot and I don't intend to encourage them to do anything that might endanger their sobriety. I only want to reach out to those who have taken up MMj on their own already.. and are still trying to recover from their old addictions.

-------

S.F. Savage: i think the recovery forum is a great idea, it totally moves the mmj movement forward. there are a lot of supportive people on here and do their best to help you out. we fellow WT members need to shine more light on this important matter that has been put on the back burner IMO.

Back burner, indeed. It was inevitable, with MMj becoming gradually decriminalized for medicinal use nationwide, that an overlap between addiction recovery and MMj would form. I thought a lot about this as I was preparing to obtain my rec. When I got home later that evening, after having visited my first co-op and having stopped at the local headshop... I walked around for about 2 1/2 hours before packing a bowl.. It was not a decision I took lightly.

You are absolutely right. This is something that would move the MMj movement forward.

----------

Patientx: Leo and angel are the first patients I have met that are AA, and I really admire their courage so much. I can see how they are marginalized in AA or AA like groups, it must really suck.

Sky, my friend is a total AA nazi like you were talking about. lol. He spoke to me like I was a 3 year old child when I told him I was on the medical cannabis program, I wanted to strangle him. I really got his goat good tho' with Leo around yesterday.

I loved the way Leo explained AA here and what it means to him. It certainly gives me less of a negative perspective on it that I got from my friend.


Curious to know how you got his goat. Please recount the conversation. Thanks for the praise. I'm glad I could dampen your negative outlook on AA. For many people, 12-step recovery is a life-saver. It was for me, when I first got sober.

endlesssky: well i also got hep c. and we are talking 2006 now, and i have been on mmj for over a year and i'm terminal. i don't go to AA or NA anymore. i just can;t find a meeting that i would share openly in. and i'm not here to impress anyone . so i find if i keep myside of the street clean i have nothing to fear from anyone in AA or NA i just don't think it's nessisary to put my self thought every person has his oun program.

I know how you feel. I have openly admitted my MMj usage in meetings, in hopes of avoiding the negative consequences I might unknowingly inflict upon myself by keeping it a secret. Having gotten it out of the way early (I shared about MMj within a week of getting on it), I was able to continue attending my two core meetings without much personal struggle. However, I don't share anymore except on a one-to-one basis and I do feel marginalized. I don't feel comfortable sharing openly anymore and I don't get the same level of personal healing or enrichment out of attending meetings.

At one time, I shared in every meeting and really got a lot of benefit from my participation. It hasn't been the same since MMj and that is why I'm speaking about it now. I figure there must be others who feel as I do and that perhaps we could feel less marginalized by supporting each other. This gets me out of my head a little and if I can be of service to others in this manner, it will go a long way to ensure that I continue in the right direction. As a recovering addict, I have forced myself to question my own intuition on a great many things.. If I don't, then bad decisions may again become par for the course. To that end, I constantly have to re-examine my motives and personal necessity for MMj. It... like any other drug... could easily become my undoing if I don't keep it in check. Reaching out to others in the same situation and involving myself in the political cause gives me purpose.. and having purpose keeps me out of trouble.

endlesssky, has withdrawing from meetings because you don't feel comfortable openly sharing in them caused you to suffer or tested the strength of your sobriety? This illustrates my concern over how the ramifications of MMj and its apparent conflict with many recovery models could impair the progress of the recovering addict, even while simultaneously relieving his suffering. I want to reconcile these two aspects of my life.. Figure out how they can integrate rather than oppose each other. This forum, this movement, these people.. WeedTracker.. all these things have been helping me achieve this goal.. Moreso than I anticipated.

WildWill: During my annual physical around my 30th birthday, my Doctor noticed an abnormality in my blood, and coupled with the sensitive nature of my liver as it had been for a little while, he was concerned. After a few months of testing I found out I had a "fatty liver" and that if I continued to drink alcohol I would kill myself.

In the last four years I can count the number of alcoholic beverages I've consumed on one hand. I didn't need AA, I didn't need any therapy, I did start taking anti-depressants for the mood swings and to help with my personality, but for the most part I had no problems dropping the booze.

I do not believe that AA is for everyone. If it helps you then great, but DO NOT think that what works for you works for me or for anyone else. That's the problem that I have with AA. That and the complete and utter rigidity of it's rules.

I prefer a more holisitic approach that focuses on the entire being, body, mind and spirit personally. I did a LOT of soul searching on who I was and what it was I wanted to accomplish. I knew that alcohol was poisoning my body and I had tangible proof. It's hard to explain that to people, and really it's not my place to do so. What you do with your body is your own business.

Good to hear. I envy you for your success in "dropping" a self-destructive chemical habit with "no problems". In my experience, most AAers have tried that route. Our problem is that the harder we attempt to employ willpower and self-discipline, the less we seem to succeed. I understand your resistance to the "Higher Power" concept. I struggle with that often, myself. Principally, what I have gained from AA is the cameraderie and support of others trying to recover from similar pasts-- and a newfound grasp on the value of honesty, responsibility, service, and accountability. AA is not the only (or maybe even the best) way of obtaining these things.. but it is one way. The Higher Power issue is one for which I usually develop a sufficient workaround. IMHO all of mankind co-habitates a deep level of consciousness that as a whole, is greater (or Higher) than the sum of its parts or of any of its individual inhabitants. I call it the "Collective Unconscious" or the "Collective Human Consciousness" or the "Collective Conscience" depending on the context. Anyhow... if I choose to surrender to this Higher Power, what that means to me is that I am setting aside my selfish intentions to contribute to a greater good in whatever manner of productive service I am called on to perform. My Higher Power is the Greater Good.

I don't know if I believe in God or not. But I do pray. I know with conviction that I personally do not have all the answers. I know with conviction that the Collective Human Consciousness comprises a Higher entity of which I am part.. I can tap into this entity for guidance and reassurance, to express frustration or gratitude, or to simply not feel alone. It's far more symbolic than literal and my ideas on the subject are dynamic.. Ever changing.. non-restrictive.. they allow for the possibility of anything and can take shelter beneath many philosophical or spiritual ideologies without demanding material proof from any of them.

WildWill: Hmm...that's an interesting idea. I think though, that there are fewer patients in your category than you think. That's not to say that it won't happen. For now, you can use the "what's going on" forum to speak your mind.

I think it will happen eventually, so I feel no need to force the issue. For now, I am content with these threads. Once I have a long enough list of names of interested folks, I think I'll hit up a few co-ops to see if any are interested in letting a 12-step meeting occur in their facility. I think in the long run, an actual face-to-face meeting will be more beneficial than just having it online. How revolutionary would that be? LEO might even tip his hat if and when an MMj co-op decides to get involved with the recovery movement. That is something that I don't think any one expects. In time, WeedTracker will be wanting to support it with a forum without me having to ask. Imagine this.. an AA meeting where fellow recovering drunks and addicts gather to shareand exchange their experience, strength, hope, and top shelf genetics.

So who's with me?