[crescentfresh]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is prescribed psychiatric pharms in addition to medical cannabis. My specific experience has been with antidepressants and cannabis. Ultimately, I'd rather not take the pills at all, but for years now they've provided half of a working combo.

However, the combination is not without its conflicts. Specifically, if I take an antidepressant (any kind; SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, DRIs, tricyclics, tetracyclics, etc.) and then consume cannabis less than 2 hours afterward, there's a 50/50 chance that I'll experience a severe headache and sinus inflammation and become irritable. If it's been less than an hour, then the symptoms are guaranteed to appear and will probably also include anxiety and/or nausea. Needless to say, I've medicated with my pills and my cannabis at completely different times of day for years now. I try to take my pills at bedtime, but one of the reasons I have a recommendation is because of insomnia, so sometimes that's not an option.

In the end, the whole process of balancing the two can become a bit complicated or at least tedious. And that's why I wanted to start this thread -- to see if any of you had any similar difficulties with combinations and also how you dealt with it.

Thanks in advance for your input!

[flylightly]

The side effects are because when you take an SSRI drug like effexor itll increase your seratonin levels which is good, however if your body isnt use to producing amounts of seratonin your going to have major side effects as it is. Anti depressents and anxiety medications work in the sense that they change the way your synapses fire and respond within the brain. Drugs can effect us all very much alike and at the same time highly differant. Your brain and your body might be having a battle because your off balancing everything by mixing with cannabis.

I suffered from a Seratonin overdose taking effexor. Ive had major stomach problems as well as brain zaps, which I highly suggest you look up because it could highly change your opinion about which to take.

How are the effects when you smoke previous to taking the medications?

[crescentfresh]

Originally Posted by flylightly

The side effects are because when you take an SSRI drug like effexor itll increase your seratonin levels which is good, however if your body isnt use to producing amounts of seratonin your going to have major side effects as it is. Anti depressents and anxiety medications work in the sense that they change the way your synapses fire and respond within the brain. Drugs can effect us all very much alike and at the same time highly differant. Your brain and your body might be having a battle because your off balancing everything by mixing with cannabis.

I should have clarified -- I know why it happens, I'm wondering if other people have the same experience or not. Because many people I know can take their Prozac or whatever in the morning followed by a joint and a coffee and they never experience any ill effects.

Also, not all antidepressants affect serotonin levels. Most of the popularly prescribed ones do, however, Wellbutrin, for example, affects only dopamine and norepinephrine levels. Though I take Wellbutrin currently and experience the same negative effects if I medicate with cannabis within close proximity.

Originally Posted by flylightly

I suffered from a Seratonin overdose taking effexor. Ive had major stomach problems as well as brain zaps, which I highly suggest you look up because it could highly change your opinion about which to take.

I'm so sorry you had that experience with Effexor. I had something very similar happen to me when I was home from senior year of college for winter break back in 2000. The experience (brought on by accidental withdrawal) was one of a series of events that resulted in me not going back to school for many years. I also experienced brain zaps (among other things) when tapering off of just about every SSRI I was ever prescribed. Lexapro was the worst. The best part? The first few times I went through withdrawal was late 90s/early 2000s when the psychiatric profession didn't believe in antidepressant withdrawal thanks to pharmaceutical company propaganda. In one case they even treated the withdrawal as new symptoms and tried to medicate them away with anti-psychotics.

Originally Posted by flylightly

How are the effects when you smoke previous to taking the medications?

That's a really good question. Unfortunately, the negative effects are just as bad. In fact, I can still get them if I take my pills as long as three hours after smoking.

[La_Mogwai]

flylightly - You seem to be talking about just SSRI side effects with or without mmj, correct? Or are you making a case that mmj increases the likelihood or serotonin side effects.

Just looking for some clarification...

For the record, I take an SSRI (Effexor) and I seem to be relatively *knock on wood* free of side effects. I can vary my dosage time and not have side effects, for example. I haven't had any mmj interactions with the meds, but I may well be a lucky minority. I look forward to hearing other people respond about what time of day they medicate with cannabis vs. psychiatric meds.

[Ivy]

I no longer take anti-depressants when I did I took Prozac. I had no side effects and I would medicate and take a Prozac almost simultaneously. What Prozac did for me was remove any anxiety I may have got from medicating, say with a very racy sativa. However no matter what strain I medicated with I felt the high was subdued. In general I feel more benefit from the flowers without Prozac.

Ivy

[Ulalume]

Hi, crescentfresh.

What you're describing is very strange. If it only occurred when you combined marijuana with SSRIs or only when you combined marijuana with Wellbutrin, the mystery might have been a bit easier to solve. But since you claim it happens with any antidepressant you take, the water is muddied. (For example, it seems, if I understand correctly, that marijuana affects dopamine and norepinephrine mainly. That might have explained a reaction with Wellbutrin. But again, you say every antidepressant, so . . . muddy water.)

Are there any other pharmaceuticals that interact negatively with marijuana for you? Xanax? Aspirin? Anything? Conversely, is there anything else that interacts negatively with antidepressants?

Have you spoken with your doctor about this? Has he/she offered any ideas at all as to why something like that might happen?

Again, it's very strange. I take Prozac in the mornings, but I don't smoke/vape/eat marijuana early in the day so I've never experienced a problem.

I'm sorry I couldn't help at all. Good luck with finding answers. I know I'm curious to see if anyone else has any ideas or similar experiences.

[flylightly]

Originally Posted by La_Mogwai

flylightly - You seem to be talking about just SSRI side effects with or without mmj, correct? Or are you making a case that mmj increases the likelihood or serotonin side effects.

Just looking for some clarification...

For the record, I take an SSRI (Effexor) and I seem to be relatively *knock on wood* free of side effects. I can vary my dosage time and not have side effects, for example. I haven't had any mmj interactions with the meds, but I may well be a lucky minority. I look forward to hearing other people respond about what time of day they medicate with cannabis vs. psychiatric meds.

Yeah I was only talking about the SSRI's. I was only a once every three month smoker when I was taking Prozac so I never suffered any adverse side effects.

Crescentfish, have you considered taking a multivitamin along with Niacin maybe itll clear out your system and keep things stable.

I don't regret having taken any of the differant pills they tossed my way but when they just never worked and only did damage I knew what I always have known, my body hates synthetic drugs as much as I do.

[M_AD1234]

I take Prozac and medicate with no adverse effects. The Prozac keeps me from going into deep states of depression due to my disability. I have been taking it for over a year now and have been medicating. Only medicine I have gotten adverse effects from is my pain pills AKA Vicodine. I have heard about different people actually hallucinating with different types of anti-depressant pills so becareful.

[Pops]

I just wanted to add, I have been taking Prozac from the VA hospital but I just ran out of them just recently and about a month or two ago I became an MMJ patient. And had no Side effects w/ Indica until I started to medicate with a Indica/Sativa or just Sativa and I would get headaches but since I ran out of my Prozac (forgot to refill) recently, I have had no headaches. So now I am not sure of what to do now. I do not want to say anything to the VA about MMJ meds. for fear of losing my VA benefits

To answer your question, I take 200mg of Trazadone and 2mg of Klonopin at night for sleep, and also 10mg of Lexapro. I have not encountered any negative effects when using MMJ after taking any of these pills. However they were all prescribed to me due to a physical illness not a mental one, so that may make a big difference (brain chemistries and all that).

[MadRiverTurtle]

Prozac
Effexor
Zoloft
Lithium
Depokote
Geodon
Trazadone
Xanax
Valium
Trileptal
Wellbutrin
Neurontin
Zyprexa
Lamictal
Klonopin
Buspar
Niravam

^ never had a negative effect with any of them in regards to MMJ except taking them on their own.

Is your wellbutrin XL?


Trazadone is *one* of the reasons I started to use MMJ. I was used to taking 300mg a night for about a year straight until one night I had missed my dose. I realized it gave me the ***worst*** withdrawals.... ohgawd it was gross. Never smoked crack but I think that's what it must feel like. Super cracked out for about a few weeks, even with trying to taper. Plus, when I was on Trazadone I had atrocious nightmares several times a week. Freakishly horrible nightmares. Think of the bloodiest, most gory horror movie you've seen and times that by 100 *shudders*

Originally Posted by MadRiverTurtle

Plus, when I was on Trazadone I had atrocious nightmares several times a week. Freakishly horrible nightmares. Think of the bloodiest, most gory horror movie you've seen and times that by 100 *shudders*

Really?? Funny, I've had the exact opposite effect. On every other med I've been on for sleep (especially freakin' Seroquel, which I was on when my insomnia was raging out of control and no one thought to do a thyroid test), I've had the usual detailed, lifelike dreams I've had my whole life. On the Trazadone/Klonopin cocktail, I hardly remember my dreams anymore.

Just goes to show how one size most definitely does not fit all!

[crescentfresh]

Originally Posted by MadRiverTurtle

... Is your wellbutrin XL?

Yeah, they give XL to pretty much everyone now. I generally don't have to worry about overlapping it with cannabis because I take it when I get up in the early morning and I rarely ever medicate until the afternoon. However, it has happened before and it's the worst. Probably because the extended release keeps dumping into my system over time. However, several years ago I was on the original Wellbutrin which has a short half-life on it's own and I still had to wait hours until it was safe to medicate with cannabis.

[MadRiverTurtle]

+1

I've been back on it for 4 months now. I love it, it's been wonderful.

[Big K R]

How long have you been taking lexipro? I have been taking it for about 10 yr. When I stoped for a day I had some kind of brain zap also. I wish I could stop. I tried many times. It's a bad feeling in your head. God bless

[La_Mogwai]

Originally Posted by MadRiverTurtle

Trazadone is *one* of the reasons I started to use MMJ. I was used to taking 300mg a night for about a year straight until one night I had missed my dose. I realized it gave me the ***worst*** withdrawals.... ohgawd it was gross. Never smoked crack but I think that's what it must feel like. Super cracked out for about a few weeks, even with trying to taper. Plus, when I was on Trazadone I had atrocious nightmares several times a week. Freakishly horrible nightmares. Think of the bloodiest, most gory horror movie you've seen and times that by 100 *shudders*

MRT - trazadone is a wonder drug for me. I had debilitating insomnia (my diagnosis is bipolar) and other drug made me sleep walk and sleep-read and sleep-email and damage things in my stupor. Trazadone fixed everything for me.

BUT I recently stopped taking it for a few nights and had a baaaaaad week and I think I might have been having the withdrawals you are describing. I can't thank you enough for this info.

BTW, without Trazadone I have nightmares (as bad as yours...ones that disturb you for hours during the day even). Without it I also get up after 4 hours of sleep, in the middle of the night.

[MadRiverTurtle]

^ to clarify, withdrawals felt like:

jaw lock/grinding teeth
extremely irritable, extremely agitated
dehydration
anxious
paranoid



it was really the lock jaw and insanity...

[M_AD1234]

Haha MadTurtle I get those side effects when I stopped taking Prozac. I tried not taking it for awhile to see if my depression was the same, sadly it was. So I started taking them again. To all those taking pills and medicating everyone's body is going to react different to these medications, be responsible and know your limits. All I got to say, dangerous world out there :slaugh:

[crescentfresh]

Originally Posted by Big K R

How long have you been taking lexipro? I have been taking it for about 10 yr. When I stoped for a day I had some kind of brain zap also. I wish I could stop. I tried many times. It's a bad feeling in your head. God bless

I took Lexapro for a few years earlier in the decade and it was veeery hard to stop. It took me at least a couple of false starts to make it happen, but I finally got through the withdrawal -- brain zaps and all. I totally believe you can do the same. Seriously, I'm really bad at committing to things so if I can do it, anyone can. Though if it were me, I would speak with my doctor about finding another pharm to replace the Lexapro or at least discuss your intention to use medical cannabis exclusively if that's what you choose to do. Good luck!

Can I ask, those of you who are using Lexapro and found the withdrawal process so painful, what dosage you were on? Thanks for sharing your stories as they are useful warnings.

[crescentfresh]

Originally Posted by darkintheglow

Can I ask, those of you who are using Lexapro and found the withdrawal process so painful, what dosage you were on? Thanks for sharing your stories as they are useful warnings.

I was on 20mg per day when I finally discontinued the med. Though as recently as a few months before stopping, I had been on 30mg/day for a period of 4-6 months out of the few years total that I took the med.

Some related thoughts: The FDA does not recommend doses higher than 20mg/day, but many doctors do it anyway. I might suspect that taking such a dose affected the severity of my withdrawal symptoms if it hadn't occurred so many weeks prior to discontinuation.

[flylightly]

Thought you all would enjoy the following information so you can know more about the problems Ive been facing myself

Brain zaps, (proposed name: myalotinasis from Greek for brain + jolt) also known as “the electric brain thing,” “brain shivers,” “brain shocks,” “battery head,” “blips,” or “brain spasms,” are a fairly common and notorious withdrawal symptom experienced during discontinuation (or reduction of dose) of SSRI and SNRI antidepressant drugs. However, the effect is not only confined to withdrawal periods for all suffers, but also is experienced while actually taking the prescribed medication (although less commonly), and has been known to continue for years after withdrawal from the associated medication.

The phenomenon is most commonly associated with paroxetine (Paxil, Seroxat), venlafaxine (Effexor), sertraline (Zoloft), duloxetine (Cymbalta), fluvoxamine (Luvox), citalopram (Celexa) and escitalopram (Lexapro).

In more recent years, drug companies have added to their list of potential side-effects of many of these medications the possibility of “sensory disturbances”, believed to be in reference to the strengthening body of anecdotal evidence about this phenomenon’s existence.

Description:

“Brain zaps” are said to defy description for whoever has not experienced them, but the most common themes are of a sudden “jolt,” likened to an electric shock, apparently occurring or originating in the brain itself, with associated disorientation for a few seconds. They are sometimes accompanied by brief tinnitus and vertigo-like feelings. Immediately following this shock is a light-headedness that may last for up to ten seconds. The sensation can be described for many as a flashbulb going off inside the head or brain, coupled with a sudden sensation of pressure within the ears which is similar to the feeling of trying to relieve inner-ear pressure. Another anecdotal description of a “zap” is as though someone had opened up the person’s skull and dragged a staticky blanket across his or her exposed brain. Essentially, it is a wave-like electrical pulse that quickly travels across the surface of (or through) the brain. Still another description is that it is like a bug zapper in stereo traveling back and forth across the back of the head, accompanied by a taste of aluminum foil in the mouth. Moving one’s eyes from side to side quickly has also been shown to trigger these zaps and causing them to come in rapid succession. It is thought to be a form of neuro-epileptiform activity.

Some have suggested the experience resembles a “funny bone” except that it shoots through the entire body, starting from the head. The effect may be similar to drunkenness without any cognitive loss. Driving while experiencing these “zaps” is not advised.

As withdrawal time increases, so does the frequency of the shocks, before they wane completely. At their peak, brain zaps have been associated with severe headaches. They may last for a period of several weeks after the last dose and usually resolve completely within a month or two. However, anecdotal reports of “zaps” from protracted withdrawal are known to last a year or longer.

Mechanism of Action:

Paresthesia and “electric shock sensations” are clinical terms used to describe this symptom, though paresthesia by definition is clinically incorrect.

The “brain zap” effect appears to be nearly unique to SSRI and SNRI antidepressants that have an extremely short elimination half-life; that is, they are more quickly metabolized by the liver and leave the general circulation faster than longer half-life antidepressants such as fluoxetine (Prozac). This attribute of abruptness leaves the brain a relatively short time to adapt to a major neurochemical change when the medication is stopped, and the symptoms may be caused by the brain’s attempt at readjustment. There is no current evidence that these “zaps” present any danger to the patient experiencing them however they can be very disconcerting to those patients whom have no prior warning or knowledge of them.

The electric shock sensations reported with neck flexion seem identical to Lhermitte’s sign, which appears with dysfunction of the posterior spinal cord. This suggests change at a neuronal level.

Many medical professionals are still unaware of the possible occurrence of this effect. Tranylcypromine (Parnate) used at high doses is also known for severe brain zaps, which may in some cases start at the base of the spine and progress to the head, or may occur exclusively in the head.

Brain zaps are also commonly experienced following periods of heavy use of the drug MDMA (Ecstasy).

Treatment:

There is hypothetical and anecdotal evidence that Omega 3 fatty acid supplementation can be very helpful to alleviate the symptoms of brain zaps. Anticonvulsant medications such as gabitril are also hypothesized as a useful treatment.

5-HTP, 5-Hydroxytryptophan, an over the counter supplement found in many drug and health food stores, can also be very helpful in subduing these withdrawal effects based on personal experience. It is metabolized to serotonin, the same mood molecule that anti-depressants upregulate. So, taking 5-HTP in theory loads up your brain with extra serotonin, much like an SSRI anti-depressant achieves via preventing serotonin reuptake.

There is also recent anecdotal evidence that taking a combination of Piracetam and Choline has reduced frequency and severity of brain zaps while withdrawing from escitalopram.

Originally Posted by flylightly

Thought you all would enjoy the following information so you can know more about the problems Ive been facing myself

Brain zaps, (proposed name: myalotinasis from Greek for brain + jolt) also known as “the electric brain thing,” “brain shivers,” “brain shocks,” “battery head,” “blips,” or “brain spasms,” are a fairly common and notorious withdrawal symptom experienced during discontinuation (or reduction of dose) of SSRI and SNRI antidepressant drugs. However, the effect is not only confined to withdrawal periods for all suffers, but also is experienced while actually taking the prescribed medication (although less commonly), and has been known to continue for years after withdrawal from the associated medication.

The phenomenon is most commonly associated with paroxetine (Paxil, Seroxat), venlafaxine (Effexor), sertraline (Zoloft), duloxetine (Cymbalta), fluvoxamine (Luvox), citalopram (Celexa) and escitalopram (Lexapro).

--SNIP--
There is also recent anecdotal evidence that taking a combination of Piracetam and Choline has reduced frequency and severity of brain zaps while withdrawing from escitalopram.

Hi, I was wondering where you read this? I want to read more but you didn't post where you got this info from....

Thanks in advance :smile2:

[Big K R]

HI, I'm takeing 10mg. of lexipro. Cres how long after you quit did the brain zaps last? I lasted a week of 24hr on and off zaps, if I moved a certain way it would zap. God Bless

[flylightly]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_zaps
brainzaps.com
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Mental...ges/33304.html
http://mb.rxlist.com/rxboard/effexor.pl?read=5164http://depression.about.com/cs/venla...ainshivers.htm

For me my symptoms include jolts in the brain as well as through my arm. I do get tinnitus at times however being that I am a sound engineer I don't qualify it as part of my symptoms because there is no specific way to tell. However at times they can get really intense, the shocks, to the point where it makes my just tighten like im trying to make a really bitter face.

I have also had a history of sleep paralysis:
Sleep paralysis is a condition characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up (known as hypnopompic paralysis) or, less often, shortly before falling asleep (known as hypnagogic paralysis).[1]

Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is known as REM atonia. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, but the bodily paralysis persists. This leaves the person fully conscious, but unable to move. In addition, the state may be accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (hypnopompic or hypnagogic) which cause an acute sense of danger [2]. Sleep paralysis is particularly frightening to the individual due to the vividness of such hallucinations[3]. The hallucinatory element to sleep paralysis makes it even more likely that someone will interpret the experience as a dream, since completely fanciful, or dream-like, objects may appear in the room alongside one's normal vision. Some scientists have proposed this condition as a theory for alien abductions and ghostly encounters.[4]

The paralysis can last from several seconds to several minutes "after which the individual may experience panic symptoms and the realization that the distorted perceptions were false" [5]. When there is an absence of narcolepsy, sleep paralysis is referred to as isolated sleep paralysis (ISP) [6]. "ISP appears to be far more common and recurrent among African Americans than among White Americans or Nigerian Blacks" [7], and is often referred to within African American communities as "the witch riding your back" [8][9].

Which increased exponentially after having started taking effexor. When I stopped taking the drug so did my sleep paralysis stop. Anyone who has ever suffered from sleep paralysis knows how horrible a feeling is and how mentally damaging of a feeling it is.

Also for more info on sleep paralysis see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis