[HappaGuy]

An Xmas Day Discourse on Oxymorons, Profit, and Compassion.[/B]

"With one hand he dropped a shilling on the collection plate, and with the other removed a pound"
-unknown

Originally Posted by thepatientdude

In my heart of hearts I know a majority of these places are truly addressing the needs of our most used and abused social group in existence

the sick and dying.

but we would mistaken to believe a city permit would merit a symbol of legitimacy in the eyes of patients.

Many were opened under structured business plans STRICTLY for monetary gain, who do you think has the kind of money it takes to open such a high risk business?

Many a compassionate caregiver has had to turn to the underworld to fund there visions of compassion only to be thrown on there ass when the promise of riches doesn't come to fruition.

These are strictly my opinions and are open for debate but I have seen all of this with my own 2 eyes.....

Source: http://www.weedtracker.com/forums/ne...wthread&f=1189


An oxymoron is a statement that combines two propositions that are utterly at odds with one another.

A towering dwarf. A pleasing disaster. Military intelligence. And now quoted above we have 'strictly-for-profit compassion'.

That is an oxymoron. The ideas expressed are so confused with unwitting euphemisms that the words used to express them have lost their very definition.

These words are central to the MMJ movement, and so bitterly ironic, that I think this is worth attention and clarification.

"For profit" is for personal gain. It is generally accepted to be a selfish thing. Business is generally selfish. People grow rich from business by taking as much as they can get from as many customers as they can for as long as they can, and milk the cash cow. (It can feel spiritual.)

I'm a Global 500 MBA. Standard business practice is that the price on your menu means that anyone who can't pay it can take a hike, including "our most used and abused social group in existence...the sick and dying". There's no compassion in the free market per se.

"Compassion" is outwardly a selfless act. It is defined as 'an intense awareness of the suffering of another combined with the urge to relieve it.' (sorry too lazy to look it up in the Miriam Webster dictionary just now).

(Compassion is an inwardly selfish act. You cannot buy a drug to make you feel as good as helping someone who really needs it, all the better if they appreciate it.)

Compassion does not charge $3500 per pound wholesale to the clubs for medicine that cost significantly less than $1000 per pound to grow. Profiteers do that. Profiteering is not compassionate. Compassion does not profiteer.

I know compassionate caregrowers. They are providing MMJ direct to small patient circles at cost-plus fifty percent, maybe, instead of slinging it to the clubs at 4 to 20 times cost as is common in the SF Bay Area. They have sustained this for a couple of years now.

Compassion per se is when one gives up one one dearly loves to relieve the suffering of one dearly beloved.

Such love is most often between intimate friends but is found in it's purest form among strangers. It is there, where there is no chance of personal gain, that compassion shines forth most clearly.

I always thought of compassion as the signal virtue of lovers of Our Green Lady of Mercy (MMJ). I see it happening still among the MMJ people I know, and even beyond the direct MMJ community.

What's more natural than kicking down a nug to a friend or some lady you met in a club who is obviously in a lot of pain and can't pay the price on the board?

Compassion is kicking down that nug to some guy in the street or a friend, not because you won't feel the lack, but you know it'll make an even bigger difference for the good for him. Compassion is playing providence because you can and you don't see enough people doing it.

IMHO compassion is a reflection of the love that created our lives.

Our mother's don't send us bills. The creator of this earth and cosmos does not hold them as security against payment of our mortgage. The wind does not sigh "your next breath, will that be cash or credit?'

The dearly beloved is the force of life itself. When we express compassion we participate in the sacred. The dearly beloved is the sacred amongst and within us all. (This is what the Sufi poet Rumi was on about, IMHO).

The sun does not shine upon us all for "the promise of riches".

Nor does it measure justice between one man and another. It does not care about condos cars or bank accounts or criminal records.

Nor does it distinguish between the healthy and the wealthy and those dying in poverty.

If you look upon earth from the perspective of the sun (or any place off-earth), the difference between the damned and the blessed is profoundly inconsequential.

We have to be good to each other. Just know that you can't really know the truth of another human story, and be kind.

We must avoid arrogating judgement to ourselves. We are not suitable judges, especially those Puritanical souls who see net worth as varying directly with moral merit.

And be kind too, to those whose arrogance and ignorance blind them from understanding, even though they oppress us. We are each in some degree similarly arrogant and ignorant. In time we all come to know better.

Profiting from the desperate money of the seriously-ill is...well, draw your own conclusion, please.

It's good enough for big pharmaceutical companies.

But seriously folks:

There is a business to sustaining compassion, and that business must include sustaining the caregivers. Any organization, any individual, must take in more than it spends or it will cease to be.

(PLEASE NOTE ALL YE VENDORS AND CLUBS: They'd also better have legal counsel retained prior to police raids.)

In the MMJ community now there are (far too few) co-ops that spend a portion of net proceeds on compassion. CHAMP was one such club, and I am a grateful former member.

There are (far too few) growers who devote a portion of their harvest for those who cannot possibly afford club prices. I was a beneficiary of such, and may be again (but oy! the middlemen are scammers!).

There are (need many more) growers who grow primarily for such patients, taking from the well they dig only what they need for themselves. I am a benificiary of such persons. I am grateful for their compassion. It makes a huge difference to me. It underwrites these long rants I offer up on WT.

And on the other hand there are black marketeers enjoying partial legal shelter under California state law making fast fortunes growing and selling marijuana affordable only to those qualified patients who can cough-up full price, and leaving Tiny Tim outside to fend for himself in the cold. Nope. No compassion here.

We humans are a curious bunch. I remember this Christmas Day of 2007 that some time ago a very good man spoke up and said "hey, wouldn't it be great if we were nice to each other for a change?". For his trouble we nailed him to a tree and named a lot of religions and this high holy holiday after him. (Apologies to Douglas Adams' "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy).

I believe we can be better than this, but:

"As you wish."

Merry Christmas to all.

Happa guy, lengthy but well written post of definitions. we could and hopefully someday should do better. it's what i'm praying for. Merry Christmas to too bro. bp

[BrattonBasher]

I found this to be quite a pessismistic post about MMJ. 215 and sb420 have been quite good to me, and I appreciate what the co-ops are doing for the vast majority of us. The prices are going down recently, and I see several co-ops reaching out to patients who can't afford medicine. Happa, this is the USA, you will always have a large gap between rich and poor. Calling out co-ops to be compassionate is alright, but to even things out you should also post about the many who have benefited from MMJ.

[HappaGuy]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

I found this to be quite a pessismistic post about MMJ. 215 and sb420 have been quite good to me....
Calling out co-ops to be compassionate is alright, but to even things out you should also post about the many who have benefited from MMJ.

Exactly whom do you mean? Besides seriously ill patients, what 'many others' benefit do I overlook? (This is not a rhetorical question. I really don't follow you here, and I want to catch your point.)

As a matter of policy I concern myself pretty strictly with the benefit experienced by seriously-ill patients, regardless of their ability to pay, in keeping with the letter and spirit of our California MMJ laws. Growers and dispensaries are essential, but instrumental.

I believe I was calling on growers to be more compassionate.

Any compassion the clubs can afford has to be carved out of the difference between what the grower charges and what the market will bear, along with every other cost they incur maintaining a retail storefront. That is the bitter task of merchants since the dawn of time.

The clubs hang out the MMJ shingle in public. That, their good behavior, and time wins friends for MMJ. The clubs are at vastly greater risk than growers with their signs and street addresses and advertisements. As businesses go the clubs enjoy handsome margins, but they pull their political weight.

I don't have time to kvetch much about clubs while the growers are charging them $3500 per pound. Black market prices; conservatively four to twenty times cost. No compassion about it. Your average manufacturer strives to get ten percent over cost.

Some say growers are being compassionate simply taking the risk of growing a supply for the clubs at any price. But it seems to me that they would be selling the same marijuana on the black market at the same price if it weren't so much more safe and convenient to sling it to the clubs.

Yes that is consistent with American commercial values. No it is not compassionate.

I know there are a lot of growers who want to think of themselves as compassionate and collect full market price too. I often say they're 'wrapping themselves in the flag of compassion in order to make money hand over fist off the desperation of seriously-ill MMJ patients.

Everyone would like to have their cake and eat it too. Marie Antoinette said let them eat cake. Our "compassionate growers" say let them pay $3500 per pound wholesale.

Again I say, if we could find a way to protect our genuinely compassionate growers (and you guys are out there bless you!) from federal arrest, then suddenly a lot more growers would become more compassionate. Prices would come down, more seriously-ill people could afford it, and arrangement can be made so that those who cannot pay can get safe access anyway, as is the intent of the 1996 CUA.

So long as growers face the same risk of federal arrest, they will require the same premium prices to compensate them for their risk. That's business. But please don't call it compassionate.

I'm very grateful to have access to any MMJ at all. But I insist we can do better, we can be better than this as a community. Let us use these MMJ laws as an inspiration not an alibi.

Thank you for your measured response. I'd be grateful for clarification.

[HBMT]

i know rite were yer commin from happa, i feel the very same way, i myself practice a bit diff. up here. i dont charge but a pair of bens per oz. that works out ta be cheaper then what the dispenserys are payin down there. and our wholesale market is close ta 1,600 ta 2,000 per lb.. now that is the prime pickins too, course this is only in the circle of medicinal supply.. black market still bears higher prices,, lowest ive seen is about 2,800 ... its criminal ta say the least .... grow for the com-passion not the pay-check... lol

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by HappaGuy

Exactly whom do you mean? Besides seriously ill patients, what 'many others' benefit do I overlook? (This is not a rhetorical question. I really don't follow you here, and I want to catch your point.)

As a matter of policy I concern myself pretty strictly with the benefit experienced by seriously-ill patients, regardless of their ability to pay, in keeping with the letter and spirit of our California MMJ laws. Growers and dispensaries are essential, but instrumental.

I believe I was calling on growers to be more compassionate.

Any compassion the clubs can afford has to be carved out of the difference between what the grower charges and what the market will bear, along with every other cost they incur maintaining a retail storefront. That is the bitter task of merchants since the dawn of time.

The clubs hang out the MMJ shingle in public. That, their good behavior, and time wins friends for MMJ. The clubs are at vastly greater risk than growers with their signs and street addresses and advertisements. As businesses go the clubs enjoy handsome margins, but they pull their political weight.

I don't have time to kvetch much about clubs while the growers are charging them $3500 per pound. Black market prices; conservatively four to twenty times cost. No compassion about it. Your average manufacturer strives to get ten percent over cost.

Some say growers are being compassionate simply taking the risk of growing a supply for the clubs at any price. But it seems to me that they would be selling the same marijuana on the black market at the same price if it weren't so much more safe and convenient to sling it to the clubs.

Yes that is consistent with American commercial values. No it is not compassionate.

I know there are a lot of growers who want to think of themselves as compassionate and collect full market price too. I often say they're 'wrapping themselves in the flag of compassion in order to make money hand over fist off the desperation of seriously-ill MMJ patients.

Everyone would like to have their cake and eat it too. Marie Antoinette said let them eat cake. Our "compassionate growers" say let them pay $3500 per pound wholesale.

Again I say, if we could find a way to protect our genuinely compassionate growers (and you guys are out there bless you!) from federal arrest, then suddenly a lot more growers would become more compassionate. Prices would come down, more seriously-ill people could afford it, and arrangement can be made so that those who cannot pay can get safe access anyway, as is the intent of the 1996 CUA.

So long as growers face the same risk of federal arrest, they will require the same premium prices to compensate them for their risk. That's business. But please don't call it compassionate.

I'm very grateful to have access to any MMJ at all. But I insist we can do better, we can be better than this as a community. Let us use these MMJ laws as an inspiration not an alibi.

Thank you for your measured response. I'd be grateful for clarification.

You called out EVERYONE in your post, growers, clubs and patients. I am not against compassion in any way. You need to lose that "seriously ill" label you tend to throw around. Take me for example, I have ankloysing spondylitis and every disc space from my neck to the base of my spine is permanently fused and rigid. I am unable to bend over like normal people do. If you looked at me you might say I am not "seriously ill", because you are only looking at my exterior. MMJ benefits me GREATLY, and many like me. The clubs have been GREAT to me, and allowed me to better measure what I need as well as mix strains to my benefit. Calling out is OK in general, but it's quite one sided when you don't mix in that 215 and 420 have helped MANY. You are right, if the Feds layed off the growers, it would be better, but it is not going to happen anytime soon unfortunately, so we need to adjust and evolve.

[HappaGuy]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

You called out EVERYONE in your post, growers, clubs and patients. I am not against compassion in any way. You need to lose that "seriously ill" label you tend to throw around. Take me for example, I have ankloysing spondylitis and every disc space from my neck to the base of my spine is permanently fused and rigid. I am unable to bend over like normal people do. If you looked at me you might say I am not "seriously ill", because you are only looking at my exterior. MMJ benefits me GREATLY, and many like me. The clubs have been GREAT to me, and allowed me to better measure what I need as well as mix strains to my benefit. Calling out is OK in general, but it's quite one sided when you don't mix in that 215 and 420 have helped MANY. You are right, if the Feds layed off the growers, it would be better, but it is not going to happen anytime soon unfortunately, so we need to adjust and evolve.

I wish everyone to grow and consume MMJ as they wish.

I speak of the seriously-ill because they are at the top of my triage list.

The way I see it, I'm standing in line behind many sicker people and I shouldn't take any help that people sicker than I need more. But MMJ keeps me alive too, so I'm in kind of a hurry.

BBasher, I'm sorry to disagree, but you are obviously seriously ill.

It will take a lot of explaining to me why it is necessary and desirable that you should divert your limited money to paying black market premium prices for a life-saving medicine while the SB420 specifically forbids profiteering.

You have other needs too. What else might you have done with the thousands of MMJ dollars you've poured into the pockets of black market growers. At the very least you could have lightened the burden of those people who care for you despite the fact that your income must be seriously limited by such a horrible affliction. When i speak of the seriously-ill, I mean you too.

I too look perfectly normal. I am a robust looking well educated well spoken caucasian-looking American male. But I have this kind of epilepsy which, while invisible, is seriously debilitating and occasionally a mortal threat.

I used to be a globe trotting businessman rubbing elbows with the super-rich. Now I can just barely manage to hold two part-time jobs caring for people far worse off than myself. So I don't have money to throw at these growers except I can't do without their produce and I won't risk my housing to grow it myself.

At any rate, certainly the 1996 CUA also provides for "any other medical condition for which cannabis provides relief."

It's just that I have the sickest and most vulnerable populations of MMJ users, who've long since lost their earning power, at the top of my priority list. It is simply not right to insist they pay black market prices alongside the healthy and wealthy.

I pay $5 for a month's supply of anti-siezure meds as a copay under my health insurance plan, because people long ago figured out health insurance was a good thing. Meds are so expensive, and ultimately necessary for everyone, so health insurance is a way of spreading the cost and the risk around. I apply the same rationale to MMJ.

I regret any appearance of "calling out" anyone (bashing undermines the credibility of the basher). I'm simply trying to call the situation as I see it, because that is prerequisite to doing something about it.

BTW, I explained the root of the exorbitant-price-problem lay with the growers, not the clubs. The clubs are just middlemen. (That's not to say that many don't profiteer. It's just that such clubs pale in comparison to the rapacity of black market growers.) I don't think I "called out" any patients. These laws written on behalf of patients.

The Feds bust our growers. The state has ignored the 1996 CUA's call to provide for "safe and affordable" access. There's no one left to help us so we've got to help ourselves.

I concede I am NOT content with the status quo, and it is my aim to do something constructive about it.

Any ideas about how to structure MMJ health insurance in the absence of a civil court system to enforce contracts?

Thanks for responding.

[BrattonBasher]

Originally Posted by HappaGuy

I wish everyone to grow and consume MMJ as they wish.

I speak of the seriously-ill because they are at the top of my triage list.

The way I see it, I'm standing in line behind many sicker people and I shouldn't take any help that people sicker than I need more. But MMJ keeps me alive too, so I'm in kind of a hurry.

BBasher, I'm sorry to disagree, but you are obviously seriously ill.

It will take a lot of explaining to me why it is necessary and desirable that you should divert your limited money to paying black market premium prices for a life-saving medicine while the SB420 specifically forbids profiteering.

You have other needs too. What else might you have done with the thousands of MMJ dollars you've poured into the pockets of black market growers. At the very least you could have lightened the burden of those people who care for you despite the fact that your income must be seriously limited by such a horrible affliction. When i speak of the seriously-ill, I mean you too.

I too look perfectly normal. I am a robust looking well educated well spoken caucasian-looking American male. But I have this kind of epilepsy which, while invisible, is seriously debilitating and occasionally a mortal threat.

I used to be a globe trotting businessman rubbing elbows with the super-rich. Now I can just barely manage to hold two part-time jobs caring for people far worse off than myself. So I don't have money to throw at these growers except I can't do without their produce and I won't risk my housing to grow it myself.

At any rate, certainly the 1996 CUA also provides for "any other medical condition for which cannabis provides relief."

It's just that I have the sickest and most vulnerable populations of MMJ users, who've long since lost their earning power, at the top of my priority list. It is simply not right to insist they pay black market prices alongside the healthy and wealthy.

I pay $5 for a month's supply of anti-siezure meds as a copay under my health insurance plan, because people long ago figured out health insurance was a good thing. Meds are so expensive, and ultimately necessary for everyone, so health insurance is a way of spreading the cost and the risk around. I apply the same rationale to MMJ.

I regret any appearance of "calling out" anyone (bashing undermines the credibility of the basher). I'm simply trying to call the situation as I see it, because that is prerequisite to doing something about it.

The Feds bust our growers. The state has ignored the 1996 CUA's call to provide for "safe and affordable" access. There's no one left to help us so we've got to help ourselves.

I concede I am NOT content with the status quo, and it is my aim to do something constructive about it.

Any ideas about how to structure MMJ health insurance in the absence of a civil court system to enforce contracts?

Thanks for responding.

Hey Happa!

I try my hardest to NOT consider myself seriously ill. It's the only way I know how to live, as I was afflicted as a young teenager. I will be fifty in a few years, and statistics show only 10% of people with my condition are employed after age fifty, so my time is limited I realize.

Calling out is OK with me, I just felt your post was too one-sided against what we got here in California. MMJ and the State laws are doing WONDERS for me personally, so I try to appreciate what the voters gave me. The movement however does need to help out those who need help most, so it's not like I disagree with your post. I just have a different slant, and I DO NOT begrudge any effort on your part to get meds to needy patients.

[squatter420]

One of the provisions of 215 was that the State of CA was to implement a distribution system. I think it is high time that the State be taken to court to uphold their obligation under law. Timeliness is a component of law the courts recognize.

[HappaGuy]

Originally Posted by squatter420

One of the provisions of 215 was that the State of CA was to implement a distribution system. I think it is high time that the State be taken to court to uphold their obligation under law. Timeliness is a component of law the courts recognize.

Ah, a fine point, but the devil is in the details.

Prop 215 does not require but merely "encourages" the state to develop safe and affordable access.

The Compassionate Use Act of 1996 - Proposition 215
Health & Safety Code 11362.5 — Proposition 215 Effective 11-06-1996

S11362.5. Use of marijuana for medical purposes.

(a) This section shall be known and may be cited as the Compassionate Use Act of 1996.

(b)(l) The people of the State of California hereby find and declare that the purposes of the Compassionate Use Act of 1996 are as follows:
...

(C), To encourage the federal and state governments to implement a plan to provide for the safe and affordable distribution of marijuana to all patients in medical need of marijuana.

Source: http://www.weedtracker.com/forums/sh...996-10278.html


So the state of California has a truck sized loophole with which to deny responsibility under the law to establish "safe and affordable" access.

Damnable but true.