[ShiningSkull]

L.A. vs. Marijuana Dispensaries

Shira Lazar spoke with L.A. Assistant City Attorney David Berger about Calif. laws against medical marijuana dispensaries.

[joe32blow]

Sounds like the same old BS. They want to take the determination of
who needs MMJ out of the hands of doctors and put it into the hands
of the police and prosecutors. Imagine if other medical decisions were
made that way?

Also, I've yet to see where compassion means no profit. Once again,
they are trying to reshape the law rather than refine it.

The problem as I see it is that DAs get votes by being tough on criminals
and "drug users". It seems that there are too many voters in LA that
don't know the history of corruption in this city.

[Pitjustice]

Thank you for posting this.

Attorney David Berger has a right to reccomend his opinion (Comprimised integrity lawyer spin) to the city but he does not have the right to cause the initiation of force, theft or fraud.

He is clearly and intintionly mis-representing the language of prop. 215. and the spirit of the Constitution of the United States.

Freedom requires men and women to rise up in self-defense against the tyrants who think they can issue only with there permission your natural rights (in this matter its the right to freely associate and exchange a value of choice in a private contract, while not bringing harm to another).

If anothers right to be free from your actions is being infringed upon, then let them bring there case forward and let it stand on its objective merits (civil or criminaly showing that an individuals right to life, liberty or property has been infringed upon).

Don't fall for this kool aid drink, trying to appease these crooks with some sort of compromise/compliance.

Rebel, dis-obey.

This is not a mis-understanding that more protest, letter writting, calls etc. will effect.

[cephas]

David Berger has the coolest eyebrows I have ever seen......I wonder if he styles 'em or if that's just the joke nature played on him....

what that man is saying is truly unreasonable, his logic is circuitous to say the least, and especially given the current statewide financial situation, is downright irresponsible. The repercussions of his words, and the more general thought processes/logic systems of our leaders, and the socio-educational system that indoctrinates them is unfathomably scary.... What these people think leads to nothing besides more of what we have, which is gradually, but consistently becoming less than what we had....

basically, what I'm saying is we need change.

How to get it, short of open rebellion, I do not know....here's to the hope that Cooley's office suing him wakes up those who need to be woken in LA, and to the hope that eventually someone will pop up on a ballot who will have some strength of character... Also to the hope that these stupid politicians stop trying to fight the law, and start doing their jobs in a responsible manner....

haha...I made a funny....

[OldTroll]

Thanks ShiningSkull for posting this link and many others. It would be nice if everyone would view them with an open mind.

If you listen closely to Mr. Berger it is difficult to find fault with anything that he says in this video.

He wants safe and easy access to marijuana for legitimate patients.

He wants cooperatives to follow state and local law.

He wants cooperatives to fit seamlessly and unobtrusively into the community.

He wants to close marijuana storefronts that are not operating legally and/or are a public nuisance.

We cannot rebut what he says, and it happens to be what the majority of the general public is conditioned to hear and accept. The MMJ community needs to present a clean and shiny face to the public, and so far we aren’t doing a very good job of that.

-OT

[Justonevoice]

Did you notice when he started talking about prop 215 and what it said about who could use MMJ and instead of quoting the law he inserted his own opinion? Why is this British Fuck telling us how to do things in the USA? He was speaking about what the City wants like ife he is the representitive of the city in charge of deciding for us what is good and what is not. Fuck That Guy!

[cephas]

He wants safe and easy access to marijuana for legitimate patients.

...but is unwilling to do anything to help with that access, other than saying about 100% of those currently providing access are illegal and will be shut down.

He wants cooperatives to follow state and local law.

...but is unwilling to aide in the formation of those laws, and wants to prosecute before those laws are written...currently all there are, are guidelines, not laws, big difference, and a big part of why they can get away with this double speak...

He wants cooperatives to fit seamlessly and unobtrusively into the community.

This goes back to the laws being written, or not as of yet...


He wants to close marijuana storefronts that are not operating legally and/or are a public nuisance.

Again, the laws are not written, as such everything is either legal or illegal depending on how one views gray areas of law, which is what MMJ is still. The only thing the DA's office can really accuse people of is not operating according to the AG guidelines, which are not law, and as such violating them is, by definition, not illegal. So far, not one raid or closure had been carried out under the heading of "public nuisance". Until one is, the DA's action prove his words empty on that regard.

So far every raid has been carried out because of "selling MJ over-the-counter" which Cooley's office considers illegal though there has been case law stating money is adequate contribution to a collective.



I agree that we need to put on a good face, I also agree that on the surface his words make sense and seem to be in the best interest of the people, but in reality they are double speak, and the actions do not back them up. We need to realize this, an explain it to those who do not understand...most people will listen to reason.

So far the cities that have drafted regulations have not had even one raid, by any law enforcement agency (since drafting said regulations), and are not having the over-population, and crime problems LA is. They are having a refreshing upturn in small business and the result windfall of tax revenue though.

Seems to me based on this if the DA's office really meant what they were saying they would be trying to expedite regulations...as that is not what they are doing, it makes sense to question the truth behind their words, and their motivations.

here is my question, is Berger part of the class action lawsuit against Cooley, or is he in "the circle"?

Part of the reason for the suit against Cooley is his strong arm tactics, and favoritism, and borderline religious interpretation of the law....and that is within his own office, amongst his peers....If he cannot be trusted within his own house how is it he should be trusted with this, or any other interpretation of law?

I can only speak from my experience in south bay SD, but I know for a fact it is the SD County DA's office telling the city attorney to not draft MMJ regulations, that keep it from happening, at least in the small beach city I am dealing with...but I'm sure that could not be happening in a place as large as LA....and especially not with somebody like DA Cooley, and city attorney Truntaich....

There, did I find enough fault with his words....


double speak, he is using double speak...statements that sound great, filled with unexplained qualifiers, and emotional description, backed up with excellent vocal inflections,...

...when he says "What we have seen in the last couple of years while the city has struggled to find the right formula..."

His inflection on struggled, combined with his gentle tilt of the head and relaxed posture is so perfect, he sounds and looks like a gentle grandpa who is explaining in the nicest way possible why you just don't understand something so very basic...but it's OK, he loves you anyway... This guy aced his voice lessons, and probably minored in public speaking... Not to mention his affluent non-threatening British accent is one of the most trusted forms of speech, homey was tailor made for this.

We will not argue about the city "Struggling" to find a formula for MMJ. The only way the city of LA has struggled with this, is if you define "struggling" as: the end result of doing nothing. If that is the case, yes, LA has struggled with this, but last I looked that was not the definition of struggling.

I could do this on almost every sentence out of that guys mouth, LA has the best media consultants in the world, and David Berger has been trained by the best, that speech was written by the best, and he practiced it with the best before delivering it. A big part of why this is so scary....they are literally trained in how to lie with a straight face, and use words ambiguous enough so it's not really a lie, it is all based on interpretation and denotation vs. connotation, and I'm sure everybody here gets those differences right?

[OldTroll]

Originally Posted by cephas

I could do this on almost every sentence out of that guys mouth, LA has the best media consultants in the world, and David Berger has been trained by the best, that speech was written by the best, and he practiced it with the best before delivering it. A big part of why this is so scary....they are literally trained in how to lie with a straight face, and use words ambiguous enough so it's not really a lie, it is all based on interpretation and denotation vs. connotation, and I'm sure everybody here gets those differences right?

Paranoia strikes deep!

Nitpicking Berger's words here is preaching to the choir. Encouraging the media to give coverage of how the better co-ops operate would be time better spent.

-OT

[maryjayne kush]

I agree with Old Troll.

[cephas]

Originally Posted by OldTroll

Paranoia strikes deep!

Nitpicking Berger's words here is preaching to the choir. Encouraging the media to give coverage of how the better co-ops operate would be time better spent.

-OT

So, you think his remarks and phrasing was off the cuff?

Or you think "spin" is a term coined by the liberal media?

Possibly you think it is better to agree, as on the surface his words are good?

Or you simply think I am wrong about the DA's office having highly skilled media consultants and speech writers on staff....

Obliviousness is shallow. That is certainly better than being deep.

Your suggestion about positive media coverage is exactly what I've been spending a large portion of my time figuring out how to attain. Nothing happens overnight, but the ball is rolling, obviously.

Giving credibility to the words coming from that office does nothing to help this.

Having the arguments to refute those words when talking to family members and co-workers does. Or maybe you are waiting for magazine articles and local news stories to do that for you?

First you say those words are hard to argue with, then after arguments are given, you call it nitpicking and preaching to the choir.

1) There is a difference between sighting an example to describe and prove a statement, and nitpicking.

2) While it is true many on these boards feel the same as you (I assume), or I. It is also true many may not be able to phrase the arguments as well. If, by writing an argument down for others to read, someone is able to take it and explain it to someone else, causing that other person to change their mind, then "preaching to the choir" was a success. How is the choir to sing it's melody if it does not know the words first?

...is there a guarantee that will happen? Of course not. The possibility makes it worth the attempt.

So just as I continue to attempt to get positive news coverage, and I continue to attempt to get reasonable regulation, I shall also attempt to provide arguments against incorrect statements, especially when someone else says it can't be done, or isn't worth doing.

If I fail in the attempt fine.

Never attempting at all is a failure all on it's own.

[OldTroll]

cephas - - it appears that I haven’t been very clear.

I don't think that Berger’s words were off the cuff.

I don’t think that “spin” is a term coined by the liberal media, and I cannot begin to understand why you ask this.

I do agree that his words are good. I fail to understand why being well prepared for an interview is a bad thing. The MMJ advocates would do well by being so professionally prepared.

IMO arguing with family members and/or co-workers seldom produces converts, and often only strengthens their beliefs and causes further division. Arguing politics and religion hinders more than it helps.

And finally …. I do not think that you have refuted any of Mr. Berger’s statements. Nitpicking his statements does not make them incorrect … it only makes you look shallow. As far as “preaching to the choir” goes, that is what you are doing here …. what does it accomplish?

I’m not going to argue with you about the validity of Mr. Berger’s statements. It makes no difference how you view them since you have already made up and closed your mind. It’s my opinion that we should listen closely to what people like Berger say because they are well spoken, well informed, and have credibility with the general public.

-OT

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by OldTroll

cephas - - it appears that I haven’t been very clear.

I don't think that Berger’s words were off the cuff.

I don’t think that “spin” is a term coined by the liberal media, and I cannot begin to understand why you ask this.

I do agree that his words are good. I fail to understand why being well prepared for an interview is a bad thing. The MMJ advocates would do well by being so professionally prepared.

IMO arguing with family members and/or co-workers seldom produces converts, and often only strengthens their beliefs and causes further division. Arguing politics and religion hinders more than it helps.

And finally …. I do not think that you have refuted any of Mr. Berger’s statements. Nitpicking his statements does not make them incorrect … it only makes you look shallow. As far as “preaching to the choir” goes, that is what you are doing here …. what does it accomplish?

I’m not going to argue with you about the validity of Mr. Berger’s statements. It makes no difference how you view them since you have already made up and closed your mind. It’s my opinion that we should listen closely to what people like Berger say because they are well spoken, well informed, and have credibility with the general public.

-OT

Yeah dude, you're so totally right on.

Cephas, how DARE you talk politics in the MMJ politics section!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shame on yee choir preacher, shame I say, SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cephas]

Yeah, I'm just a shallow guy, with a closed mind, doing worthless things.

Besides with such passionate, informative, and dedicated people like old troll in the movement I am completely unneeded...

You got it now Old Troll, please open our minds, and lead us out of the darkness with your philosophy of not questioning authority, not dissecting what is told to you and not talking to those around you.

Please open our minds to your wisdom.

[joe32blow]

Right-wing politicians and law enforcement speak in code these days. The code is carefully worded to
make it sound good to the mainstream audience. However, their
right wing constituency knows the real meaning. Thus, the code
works very well.

Old troll's response is exactly what people like Berger want, but
what the rest of us are saying is true, because we are seeing the
code for what it is.

Let me spell it out for you:

When they say that they want to eliminate recreational users' access to
MMJ it means that they want to take the decision powers away from
doctors. It's a power grab. Nothing more, nothing less.

When they say they want compassionate not for profit collectives, it means
that they want to eliminate the sale of MMJ and only allow what few
if any patients they approve of to grow it. However, they will put in such
huge restrictions on growing that practically nobody will be able to do it.

Beware of right wing code. It is all about deception and taking away your rights.

[VooDoo Chile]

Originally Posted by cephas

Yeah, I'm just a shallow guy, with a closed mind, doing worthless things.

Besides with such passionate, informative, and dedicated people like old troll in the movement I am completely unneeded...

You got it now Old Troll, please open our minds, and lead us out of the darkness with your philosophy of not questioning authority, not dissecting what is told to you and not talking to those around you.

Please open our minds to your wisdom.

At least you realized the error of your ways before it was too late! Imagine if someone actually took your hollow rhetoric seriously, got offa their ass, and decided to fight for safe access! Oh lawdy me, what THEN?

[OldTroll]

VooDooChile & cephas & joe32blow - - -

Your passion is recognized and appreciated, however all you’re doing is raising a dust storm.

Arguing politics, even in a political forum, seldom accomplishes anything. Rational discussion oi politics often changes minds. Preaching to the choir (that means pointing your polemics at people that already agree with you) may even cause some of the choir to leave your camp because you can become an embarrassment.

If you think that name-calling and arguing like middle-schoolers with an overload of estrogen will improve the public image of the Marijuana Community, then carry on …. but ….

It is my considered opinion that the Marijuana Community, both medical and recreational, would benefit from working at influencing government and the public by presenting a clean and shiny face. Arguing like right-wing Nazis or bleeding heart liberals accomplishes very little. Adult discussions can change many minds.

-OT

Although my screen name is old Troll, I think that the three of you (VooDoo Chile & cephas & joe32blow) are trolls and since the first rule of the ‘net is DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS, do not expect any further responses from me on this thread.

P.S. Charlie Beck is going to be your next Chief of Police. That should take your minds off of Mr. Berger for awhile.

[joe32blow]

Originally Posted by OldTroll

VooDooChile & cephas & joe32blow - - -

Your passion is recognized and appreciated, however all you’re doing is raising a dust storm.

Arguing politics, even in a political forum, seldom accomplishes anything. Rational discussion oi politics often changes minds. Preaching to the choir (that means pointing your polemics at people that already agree with you) may even cause some of the choir to leave your camp because you can become an embarrassment.

If you think that name-calling and arguing like middle-schoolers with an overload of estrogen will improve the public image of the Marijuana Community, then carry on …. but ….

It is my considered opinion that the Marijuana Community, both medical and recreational, would benefit from working at influencing government and the public by presenting a clean and shiny face. Arguing like right-wing Nazis or bleeding heart liberals accomplishes very little. Adult discussions can change many minds.

-OT

Although my screen name is old Troll, I think that the three of you (VooDoo Chile & cephas & joe32blow) are trolls and since the first rule of the ‘net is DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS, do not expect any further responses from me on this thread.

P.S. Charlie Beck is going to be your next Chief of Police. That should take your minds off of Mr. Berger for awhile.

I don't think we are preaching to the choir, because there are clearly
lots of people like you that are ignorant of right wing code and their
tactics. Not only are you falling for their spin, but you are promoting it.

As for a "clean and shiny" face, you've got to be joking. There has been
a smear campaign against Marijuana going on for many, many decades. If you
think that our discussions on a message board are going to undo that, then
you truly are delusional.

[Col. Kif]

Originally Posted by joe32blow

I don't think we are preaching to the choir, because there are clearly
lots of people like you that are ignorant of right wing code and their
tactics. Not only are you falling for their spin, but you are promoting it.

As for a "clean and shiny" face, you've got to be joking. There has been
a smear campaign against Marijuana going on for many, many decades. If you
think that our discussions on a message board are going to undo that, then
you truly are delusional.

The line for soylent green forms to the left sir....

[STEVE-O]

Originally Posted by Col. Kif

The line for soylent green forms to the left sir....

" It's people......soylent green is people...." Ewwwwww sick movie !! lol-

STEVE-O

[cephas]

yup.

I'm a troll.

Got warts and a really big ugly nose. Bad teeth and breath to match. I suck. VDC had to ride upfront on the way downtown that one time I stink so much.

I also have a hyperthyroid, which is most common in young girls, so yes, I must be a "middle schooler with too much estrogen"

...your words have pointed out my shame. Thank you for doing so without calling me names, I bow to your superior maturity, and open, unconventional forms of thought.

Your arguments are so well thought out and explained they cannot be reasoned with.

You are right about adult conversations changing many minds, which is exactly what I have been talking about, and attempting to provide arguments for such ends.

Perhaps the misunderstanding is my choice of verbiage in using the word "argument", and/or argue?

Argue is defined as

Main Entry: ar·gue
Pronunciation: \ˈär-(ˌ)gyü\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ar·gued; ar·gu·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French arguer to reprove, argue & Latin arguere to demonstrate, prove; Anglo-French arguer, from Latin argutare to prate, frequentative of arguere; akin to Hittite arkuwai- to plead, respond
Date: 14th century

intransitive verb 1 : to give reasons for or against something : reason <argue for a new policy>
2 : to contend or disagree in words : dispute <argue about money>transitive verb 1 : to give evidence of : indicate <the facts argue his innocence>
2 : to consider the pros and cons of : discuss <argue an issue>
3 : to prove or try to prove by giving reasons : maintain <asking for a chance to argue his case>
4 : to persuade by giving reasons : induce <couldn't argue her out of going>
synonyms see discuss.

Nowhere in the definition of the word is there any description of a conflict or a fight. If you are adding that definition (or more appropriately: connotation), that is on you, not the word or me.

So please explain how two adults can have a conversation, where they are expressing differing points of view without arguing, or expressing an argument. Based upon the definition of the word "argue"

And Please anybody point out where I called anybody a name (other than Cooley who doesn't count, especially when "preaching to the choir" and not the media). Even one time.

I sincerely apologize if I have, but honestly in re-reading my statements I do not see it.

[BrattonBasher]

Old Troll you doggedly refuse to address the dishonest tactics and media manipulation the city attorneys office is using against us legit MMJ patients. Shame on you for that. That can of Raid is on you for backing up Berger, Cooley, and Trutanich. You think Berger is reasonable while softball questions are lobbed at him, and you don't have the foresight to project how an actual interview without the bullshit would play out. Imagine morpheus or Don Duncan asking the questions!!!

[Col. Kif]

6 minutes in he starts a quote then adds his own opinion

"You don't decide medical issues by popular vote, you decide them with science."

Mr. Berger if you haven't figured it out yet, this is America. We, the people, DO decide issues by popular vote. This is called the Democratic process.

It's this Democratic process and taxation without representation, that spurred the impetus, that led this Country to becoming a Country.

Your position exists to SUPPORT & Administrate the prosecution of Violations of the laws that are made as a result of this Democratic process.

Since you are now ON RECORD as NOT supporting Democratic process, I am sure this will sit you well in your future career. Because, it isn't going to be in politics or public office.

[Smilodon]

Originally Posted by Col. Kif

6 minutes in he starts a quote then adds his own opinion

"You don't decide medical issues by popular vote, you decide them with science."

Mr. Berger if you haven't figured it out yet, this is America. We, the people, DO decide issues by popular vote. This is called the Democratic process.

It's this Democratic process and taxation without representation, that spurred the impetus, that led this Country to becoming a Country.

Your position exists to SUPPORT & Administrate the prosecution of Violations of the laws that are made as a result of this Democratic process.

Since you are now ON RECORD as NOT supporting Democratic process, I am sure this will sit you well in your future career. Because, it isn't going to be in politics or public office.

Excellent response! I would add, this issue has already been decided by science.

[toutvabien]

Originally Posted by Smilodon

I would add, this issue has already been decided by science.

Enhancing the already ludicrous nature of the Berger quote.

[OldTroll]

Originally Posted by BrattonBasher

Old Troll you doggedly refuse to address the dishonest tactics and media manipulation the city attorneys office is using against us legit MMJ patients. Shame on you for that. That can of Raid is on you for backing up Berger, Cooley, and Trutanich. You think Berger is reasonable while softball questions are lobbed at him, and you don't have the foresight to project how an actual interview without the bullshit would play out. Imagine morpheus or Don Duncan asking the questions!!!

I’m surprised that you think that I’ve been “backing up Berger, Cooley, and Trutanich.” I have not been defending what Mr. Berger said in his interview with Shira Lazar. What I did say was, “If you listen closely to Mr. Berger it is difficult to find fault with anything that he says in this video” and I stand by that statement.

Shira Lazar is not a very good interviewer and she certainly didn’t put any pressure on Berger, and he understandably took advantage of the situation to present a very effective face to the general public.

Regardless of the ranting of the likes of VDC, j32b, & C, I continue to think that showing the public that marijuana users can be responsible citizens is more productive than name calling and nit picking.

There are many active WTers that are able to address both the MMJ users as well as the recreational users without raising any hackles …. but that requires a talent which most of us do not posses. We cannot all be like Smilodon and others, but we sure can try to listen and act with open minds.

-OT